Forum:SH:Use of singular "they"

Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:Use of singular "they"
This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. JocastaBot (talk) 15:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

We as a site have agreed that the pronoun "they" can be used as a singular pronoun. The MoS now reads:

Do not use the pronouns "they," "them," or "their" to refer to individuals of unspecified gender

However, in discussions about proposing the CT above, other questions arose: should we allow the use of singular "they" for characters whose gender is unknown to us? Should the Manual of Style be further altered in its treatment of "they," and if so, in what manner? There's been enough debate on the subject in the Discord server that it seemed best to get some public discussion going before we try to change anything else.

Singular "They" and Unspecified Gender

  • The question here is not whether "they" is grammatical as a singular pronoun, but whether it is in line with our encyclopedic style to use it for individuals whose gender is unspecified. Is it formal enough? Currently, we require that if correct pronouns are not known, editors avoid the use of pronouns for a character entirely by using names or epithets. Formal style guides are a bit divided on whether it is a good idea to use singular "they" for this purpose. Personally, I will once more point to the American Psychological Association's guidance and the acrobatics many editors who work on lengthy articles on characters with no canon gender have to do. It seems simpler to allow its use, and it doesn't strike me as too informal. Minnabird Naboo (talk) 15:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep, Strike, Replace?

  • The default option is to keep the clause as-is, but I've seen various suggestions to throw out the clause entirely or to replace it with something else on Discord. I'm throwing the floor open for suggestions here. Minnabird Naboo (talk) 15:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Personally, I think reserving "they" for characters that the pronoun applies to is a good way to highlight the small but growing diversity of gender identity in SW, as opposed to using "they" for characters of unspecified gender, which are much less unique. But on the flip side it would certainly make a lot of writing easier. Commander Code-8 Hello There! 16:41, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I think it would be easier on our editors if we allowed the use of "they" for individuals whose gender is unknown. This is a matter both of common usage and the formatting of the English language, as it becomes awkward and somewhat repetitive (in my opinion) if we are not allowed to use any pronouns for characters whose genders we do not know. In my experience, even if I'm trying to do so, a "they/them" will slip out sooner or later. I think it would be straightforward to differentiate these individuals from genuine enby characters by the simple use of the categories we already have to sort people by gender, as well as the fact that an enby character will have "non-binary" in the gender slot of their character infobox, while someone whose gender is unknown will have the box empty. I also want to point out that the use of "they" for those whose gender is unknown may be in-universe as well: let's take a look at how the Black Sun agent from Ahsoka is written in their scene. Now, while I'm aware that E. K. Johnston confirmed the character to be non-binary, this is not actually evident in the novel itself: the agent is wearing a body-concealing suit of armour that is explicitly described as making it impossible to tell their gender, and there are plenty of non-enby characters in Star Wars who have been seen to wear outfits like that on occasion. The way the scene comes across is that the agent is referred to with "they" pronouns because Ahsoka can't tell anything at all about them beyond their self-stated allegiance to Black Sun, suggesting that the use of "they" for individuals of unknown gender has an in-universe precedent. SilverSunbird (talk) 16:56, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I personally agree with CC-8, but I see merit in generalizing "they" to persons of unknown gender or pronoun preference. I prefer reserving "they" to people who use "they/them", but I'm happy with either. Also, Silver does have a point. -- YakovChaimTzvi ChissAscendancyCanonSymbol (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
  • As I understand it, "they/them/theirs" is used for non-binary genders or when the gender is unknown (ie it's more polite to use these pronouns than to assume he/she). I'd be ok with removing this entirely, or a tweak to specify that for unspecified genders it is acceptable but not preferred and we should use other attributes of the individual where possible (eg name, occupation, species) per current practice. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 04:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I say strike it. The APA guidance (along with other sources that Ayrehead02 points out in this thread) shows that singular "they" rises to the necessary level of formality. The awkwardness of the grammatical gymnastics to avoid its use is well attested by SilverSunbird and others. As for the idea that we should reserve singular "they" for nonbinary characters in order to highlight them, that seems to me to be exactly the wrong tack. We should be normalizing the use of "they" for individuals where gender is uncertain, not using it as a tool to single out enby characters and other them. And as Immi Thrax points out in the abovelinked thread, even a small step like this still helps undo some of Wookieepedia's pervasive instruction creep. jSarek (talk) 07:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Just dropping in to say that my preference is still a total strike without a replacement. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 18:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree, using singular they is definitely encyclopedic. Oxford has been using it in dictionaries for decades, and as already pointed out it's considered formal in APA. Ramsay Sanders (talk) 21:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC)