Hey. This is a discussion to seek a solution to the massing The Old Republic (Outlander/Alliance Commander story starting at TOR 4.0 Knights of the Fallen Empire) content that can't be integrated porperly due to gameplay choice influences. As a result, there's an increased difficulty in writing new articles, having to describe everything in the Behind the scenes sections instead of in the actual article bodies (which defeats the Bts section's purpose).
The story has reached a point where we can't possibly say which faction the Commander chose to support as doing so would be neglecting a different storyline altogether. And we can't try to just write what both have in common (as we've done in older SWTOR content) because what we can conclude is very limited and outcomes, such as in battles, are considerably distinct.
An example would be Mission to Onderon in which the Republic-siding Commander helps Senator Deja Nebet against the Empire and King Regalun Petryph culminating with the Commander stopping the Empire attempt at destroying the Republic fleet, whereas the Empire-siding Commander works with King Petryph and Darth Savik and ends up destroying the Republic fleet. This element and others of the 6.0 Onslaught story (as well as in previous ones) end with whomever the Commander sided with winning a decisive battle against the other.
What I'm proposing is we continue the Republic-light side and Empire-dark side logic. However, we can't outright state which affiliation would be canon and so I think we should (unorthodoxly) recognize both. I'm proposing a division between the Commander article into The Commander (Republic) and The Commander (Empire) separate articles.
This is how the process would work:
- -The Commander (Republic) article would be written in a pro-Republic perspective, assuming all light side and support Republic choices in the story as canon and the rest as Bts gameplay alternatives.
- -The Commander (Empire) article would be written in a pro-Empire perspective, assuming all dark side and support Empire choices in the story as canon and the rest as Bts gameplay alternatives.
- -Content with story and outcome affected by light/dark and support Empire/support Republic choices will be divided into the previous game mechanics sections, which could be applied in the same article together.
- -Top templates for both main articles explaining the division and linking to a consensus track topic (in case this proposal is approved).
Templates
I put forth the suggested templates:
Empire Commander story
Republic Commander story
This might be a bit confusing so I'm all open to present more examples of what I'm proposing. Winterz (talk) 01:03, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
Go ahead and discuss here what you think. Let's see if we can reach a consensus and rework/improve on this.
Winterz
- I have my own questions regarding the top templates. If they are really needed, the respective colors and images, or even their text to explain to the reader what was done. Winterz (talk) 01:03, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
Fan
- How would this work with other articles? E.g., the Battle of Corellia (Third Galactic War). Would we split for those as well?Fan26 (Talk) 01:08, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- My proposal is done exactly to counter that. We could write the article's body within both game mechanic templates. Winterz (talk) 01:13, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a good idea then. At the moment, terrible a system as it is, the BtS covering both choices is the best option available. The diverging storyline situation is very hard to cover right now, but it's not so difficult this or something like it is needed, in my opinion (not yet anyway). This system would honestly be pretty confusing. Fan26 (Talk) 01:22, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Fan, though we do need to do something about the current system. We should also have the BtS sections mention the subtle differences between each class that goes through The Alliance Commander storyline. --Rakhsh (talk) 01:44, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I understand it can be confusing but there is some precedence. Battle of Corellia has both dark side and light side gamemechanic templates through the article's body. And such would be the case to most battles/major events featured in SWTOR. We need and should write perspectives from both sides of the fence and within the article's body, not the Behind the scenes section. Behind the scenes section is for minor and alternative gameplay. If there is a way that we can write articles (and with precedence) then we should seek it. Winterz (talk) 15:25, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure the reason of why Vanilla content has both the dark side and light side templates is that all 8 class stories happened. In this case we don't know which event happened, and writing both LS and DS stories within the article it would just be confusing. I'm with Fan here. Maybe we can decide which story (LS or DS) we could use for the article and the other story be added to the BTS.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:00, November 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a good idea then. At the moment, terrible a system as it is, the BtS covering both choices is the best option available. The diverging storyline situation is very hard to cover right now, but it's not so difficult this or something like it is needed, in my opinion (not yet anyway). This system would honestly be pretty confusing. Fan26 (Talk) 01:22, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- My proposal is done exactly to counter that. We could write the article's body within both game mechanic templates. Winterz (talk) 01:13, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
Unic of the borg
- So I have this idea regarding the Outlander/Commander, we could a series of tab boxes similar to the ones used on the Assassin's Creed to reflect all light/dark/neutral options in the biography.--Unic of the borg (talk) 01:32, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- And similar to Canon/Legends. If the situation gets seriously bad, I'd say that might be a good solution. Fan26 (Talk) 01:34, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I like Unic's idea. Fan, I think you are underestimating the situation. Examples of how bad: Darth Shaar, Darth Savik and Dantooine Incursion. We're not writing articles anymore, just behind the scenes sections. Winterz (talk) 01:48, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Winterz on this matter. --Rakhsh (talk) 01:50, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- There's still little precedent for this. I like the idea, but I honestly think it's not so bad yet. Fan26 (Talk) 12:58, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Winterz on this matter. --Rakhsh (talk) 01:50, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- I like Unic's idea. Fan, I think you are underestimating the situation. Examples of how bad: Darth Shaar, Darth Savik and Dantooine Incursion. We're not writing articles anymore, just behind the scenes sections. Winterz (talk) 01:48, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
- And similar to Canon/Legends. If the situation gets seriously bad, I'd say that might be a good solution. Fan26 (Talk) 01:34, October 29, 2019 (UTC)
Ayrehead
- I haven't played TOR in quite some time, so forgive me if I've misunderstood, but the characters have all now been merged into a single player character: the Commander, correct? If this is the case and everyone is playing the same character within the continuity, then the most obvious answer is that we should revert back to our usual assumption that light side choices have been made, meaning that the Commander is sided with the Republic and all Empire aligned info should be relegated to the BTS. Ayrehead02 (talk) 12:56, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- The faction decision was actually morally neutral. One would think siding with the Republic would be a Light Side Choice, and Empire a Dark Side one, but for whatever reason, neither one is a Light or Dark choice. Fan26 (Talk) 14:55, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- The decision may not have been explicitly labelled as such, but surely the Sith Empire is a dark side faction and the Republic and Jedi are a light side faction? Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:39, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- You are correct however the issue arises that there's a whole story with the dark side. It's not just making a dark side decision with little ramifications, it's a different story with different outcomes. If we assume Empire characters join the Republic then that is even more complicated and with bigger ramifications. There should be two sides, two stories. Winterz (talk) 19:25, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Although I'm not against this thinking if nothing else better comes out of this discussion. Surely it's unbalanced seeing how the Republic will win most battles, but it's still something instead of nothing (as we are now). Winterz (talk) 19:29, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- While I understand that relegating the entire Empire storyline to the BTS isn't ideal I'm not sure there's any other way I can see it working. If there's only one Commander then they cannot have joined both the Empire and the Republic and so we cannot present both possibilities within article bodies as it would be contradictory and article bodies should only ever contain one consistent version of events. Ayrehead02 (talk) 20:21, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- The decision may not have been explicitly labelled as such, but surely the Sith Empire is a dark side faction and the Republic and Jedi are a light side faction? Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:39, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
- The faction decision was actually morally neutral. One would think siding with the Republic would be a Light Side Choice, and Empire a Dark Side one, but for whatever reason, neither one is a Light or Dark choice. Fan26 (Talk) 14:55, October 30, 2019 (UTC)