Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:The Big Tab Switch, Take 2 (Canon and Legends Pages)
This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Advanced Jedi Training Droid 6 (Talk to my master) 00:00, April 21, 2015 (UTC)
So, here we go again. Back in December, there was a discussion. The discussion was about whether it was time to go ahead and make the big switch so that when people visit an article for a subject such as say, Anakin Skywalker, they are shown by default the canon version of the article rather than the Legends one. The general consensus seemed to be let's do it and the hope was to have made a decision by January 5 when Rebels started back up. Well, obviously, that just sorta came and went, things fizzled and about a week ago the topic was archived.
Well, yeah. I'm bringing this back again. We can beat around the bush forever and day, waiting for every canon page somebody might consider to be major to become more than a stub or for those few major pages that haven't yet been created to get done. But what really impressed me the other day was when I was looking at the canon page for some event, I don't remember which, and I actually saw a complete event navigation history infobox without any redlinks. Looking at the list of current wanted pages, I don't see any canon redlink articles linked from a dozen or more pages and there's a lot of good canon material here. If there are still technical issues that need to be worked out, then let's identify them, get them worked out and get it up for a vote instead of letting it wilt on the vine. ProfessorTofty (talk) 05:08, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- The canon redlinks on Wanted Pages should be filled in first. Doing that first needs to be a priority so we can shift over as many pages as possible in the beginning. We can aim for Celebration as a good date to have this done by, but there's still more work to be done first. And I say that as one of the biggest proponents there is of making this shift. The general consensus you referred to was only a handful of people, so if we want to convince enough people for a consensus, we need all possible ducks in a row first. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:16, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- First priority should be filling in those redlinks, something that should have been done almost half a year ago. Then I believe that we should push for the switch over. People are more likely to edit pages when the groundwork has already been set for them. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 06:44, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- We have the Legends redirect tab, so we might as well use it. If we do, pages that we need to make a Canon version of will show up in it's category, making the process much easier. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 06:48, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- Please don't. People barely pay attention to that category as it is, and what you're doing means that the pages are no longer redlinks—and therefore no longer clearly visible as needing to be created—on pages. I'm concerned that by doing what you're doing, you're inadvertently making it less likely that the pages get created. Doing what you're doing also has no regard for whether the page has a canonical title. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 07:01, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- That's understandable. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 07:05, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- It should definitely be done, but I have a suggestion... why not just make a page for 'canon" and "non-canon" and put all non-canon information on that page, legends or otherwise? I think that owuld be a bit clearner. I would personally overhaul categorization as well so that canon and non-canon materials arent in teh same category trees... but that is just me... and its not really necessaryralok (talk) 08:25, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- Because Legends is a brand, not just everything non-canon we can find lying around. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 08:49, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. What you have to understand is that up until April last year, most of what is now called "Legends" was considered canon and still holds value for a lot of people. And perhaps, most importantly, is still available as a resource to future Star Wars writers, who can and do check here for such information. As for creating the redlinks - I can see the point, though my fear is that the goalposts will just keep being moved. But, anyway, fine. I'll start trying to make it a point to try to create at least a couple such pages a day. ProfessorTofty (talk) 00:21, February 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Ummmm... I didnt say that "legendds" reffered to everything non-canon, nor did I say anything even remotely to that effect. Please do not put words into my mouth... I suggested that the second tab merely be "non-canon" and that legends material be placed on a page for non-canon material. I didnt suggest in any way shape or form putting all "non-canon" material on legends pages, I suggested putting all legends information on "non-canon" pages... it sounds like a minor detail, but its a very important distinction... as for Legends being a "brand" do you have proof of the idea that legends is a "brand" such as a specific statement in regards to this, stating that non-canon works outside of the Expanded Universe continuity will be repranded legends... or re-releases of non-canon worksduring the expanded universes run that are labeled legends? AS near as I can tell legends refers specifically and exclusively to the expanded universe and not to non-canon material that was released at the time.... ah this is all somewhat off topic anyways, so if hte problem is that there is too many redlinks for canon material, I suppose I should do my part to fill out the pages then? ralok (talk) 06:17, February 15, 2015 (UTC)
- I agree... with that last bit. Let's just forget all this other stuff, which isn't really relevant at the moment and can be hashed out later. For now, like you said, exactly. Let's just create those pages. I haven't had a chance to the past couple of days because of computer issues but I should be good to go now. ProfessorTofty (talk) 02:12, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm working on Republic light cruiser in my workbench after it made it's appearance in Rebel Resolve - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 02:50, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
- I agree... with that last bit. Let's just forget all this other stuff, which isn't really relevant at the moment and can be hashed out later. For now, like you said, exactly. Let's just create those pages. I haven't had a chance to the past couple of days because of computer issues but I should be good to go now. ProfessorTofty (talk) 02:12, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Ummmm... I didnt say that "legendds" reffered to everything non-canon, nor did I say anything even remotely to that effect. Please do not put words into my mouth... I suggested that the second tab merely be "non-canon" and that legends material be placed on a page for non-canon material. I didnt suggest in any way shape or form putting all "non-canon" material on legends pages, I suggested putting all legends information on "non-canon" pages... it sounds like a minor detail, but its a very important distinction... as for Legends being a "brand" do you have proof of the idea that legends is a "brand" such as a specific statement in regards to this, stating that non-canon works outside of the Expanded Universe continuity will be repranded legends... or re-releases of non-canon worksduring the expanded universes run that are labeled legends? AS near as I can tell legends refers specifically and exclusively to the expanded universe and not to non-canon material that was released at the time.... ah this is all somewhat off topic anyways, so if hte problem is that there is too many redlinks for canon material, I suppose I should do my part to fill out the pages then? ralok (talk) 06:17, February 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. What you have to understand is that up until April last year, most of what is now called "Legends" was considered canon and still holds value for a lot of people. And perhaps, most importantly, is still available as a resource to future Star Wars writers, who can and do check here for such information. As for creating the redlinks - I can see the point, though my fear is that the goalposts will just keep being moved. But, anyway, fine. I'll start trying to make it a point to try to create at least a couple such pages a day. ProfessorTofty (talk) 00:21, February 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Because Legends is a brand, not just everything non-canon we can find lying around. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 08:49, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- It should definitely be done, but I have a suggestion... why not just make a page for 'canon" and "non-canon" and put all non-canon information on that page, legends or otherwise? I think that owuld be a bit clearner. I would personally overhaul categorization as well so that canon and non-canon materials arent in teh same category trees... but that is just me... and its not really necessaryralok (talk) 08:25, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- That's understandable. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 07:05, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- Please don't. People barely pay attention to that category as it is, and what you're doing means that the pages are no longer redlinks—and therefore no longer clearly visible as needing to be created—on pages. I'm concerned that by doing what you're doing, you're inadvertently making it less likely that the pages get created. Doing what you're doing also has no regard for whether the page has a canonical title. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 07:01, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- We have the Legends redirect tab, so we might as well use it. If we do, pages that we need to make a Canon version of will show up in it's category, making the process much easier. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 06:48, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
- First priority should be filling in those redlinks, something that should have been done almost half a year ago. Then I believe that we should push for the switch over. People are more likely to edit pages when the groundwork has already been set for them. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 06:44, February 14, 2015 (UTC)
(resent indent) I actually disagree with the idea that the more time that goes by, the harder this is. Although I also want this done as soon as possible, it's actually easier to move more content at once. The more we can automatically (via bot) switch at one time, the less we have to constantly move manually every time a new page is created. So let's please spend some time working on the canonical wanted pages, because that gets us much closer to the goal here. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:04, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm no expert on bots, but are you sure this an be done by one? This isn't just editing a page. Pages will have to be moved to namespaces that are currently occupied by other pages. While others won't have to be moved period (eg. Jabba). Fe Nite (talk) 00:22, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it should be doable by a bot. It wouldn't all be one script, since there would be multiple steps involved, but that's still far more effective and way less time-consuming than manual changes. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:28, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
- I sure hope we can do this ASAP. When I type Qui-Gon Jinn, I'd want his canon information, not his Legends. On most Wikis, wouldn't mainstream Canon matter more than an alternate continuities? Anyway, with my experience with the WikiPainDroid on my Wikis, I think more time would make it harder. I don't know how to use WikiPainDroid to move pages. I only know how to edit multiple pages with him. And the fact that there are some canon pages that say "/Canon" but some don't, I would see it even harder. But considering that I haven't mastered the bot and it's just a basic Auto Wiki Browser, you guys might know more about bots. And I wouldn't use the WikiPainDroid on sites I don't own, like this one. Especially not here, considering some warnings I got and mistakes I've made. I would fear the PainDroid would get me in more trouble. So when are we going to make the Canon default? I'm tired of landing on non-canon pages when I search a character. SeanWheeler (talk) 04:34, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. With the announcement of Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens serving as yet another reminder that the Expanded Universe we have known is moribund and sidelined (buried treasure like SkyeWalkers notwithstanding), we're reaching the point where this needs to happen posthaste to maintain legitimacy as The Star Wars Wiki, even if it means more work for us down the road to do it sooner rather than later. jSarek (talk) 05:26, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm ready to support to switch to Canon. Legends is dead, as jSarek points out. As for the Canon redlinks, these can be filled out as we go. In fact, if the switch to Canon is made, the Canon redlinks may fill up faster, as people (including anons) may be more moved to contribute when Canon is the default information.--Richterbelmont10
(come in R2!) 16:02, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm ready to support to switch to Canon. Legends is dead, as jSarek points out. As for the Canon redlinks, these can be filled out as we go. In fact, if the switch to Canon is made, the Canon redlinks may fill up faster, as people (including anons) may be more moved to contribute when Canon is the default information.--Richterbelmont10
- Agreed. With the announcement of Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens serving as yet another reminder that the Expanded Universe we have known is moribund and sidelined (buried treasure like SkyeWalkers notwithstanding), we're reaching the point where this needs to happen posthaste to maintain legitimacy as The Star Wars Wiki, even if it means more work for us down the road to do it sooner rather than later. jSarek (talk) 05:26, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- I sure hope we can do this ASAP. When I type Qui-Gon Jinn, I'd want his canon information, not his Legends. On most Wikis, wouldn't mainstream Canon matter more than an alternate continuities? Anyway, with my experience with the WikiPainDroid on my Wikis, I think more time would make it harder. I don't know how to use WikiPainDroid to move pages. I only know how to edit multiple pages with him. And the fact that there are some canon pages that say "/Canon" but some don't, I would see it even harder. But considering that I haven't mastered the bot and it's just a basic Auto Wiki Browser, you guys might know more about bots. And I wouldn't use the WikiPainDroid on sites I don't own, like this one. Especially not here, considering some warnings I got and mistakes I've made. I would fear the PainDroid would get me in more trouble. So when are we going to make the Canon default? I'm tired of landing on non-canon pages when I search a character. SeanWheeler (talk) 04:34, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it should be doable by a bot. It wouldn't all be one script, since there would be multiple steps involved, but that's still far more effective and way less time-consuming than manual changes. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:28, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
It's being worked on. Everyone have patience! - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:56, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding the tab switch, can we at LEAST wait until all of the Legends tabs are updated as far as they can go Legends-wise before we do the switch (not counting stuff like the Fantasy Flight Games materials, I mean)? While we could wait regarding fully updating stuff like, say Palpatine and Leia Organa Solo's articles due to their canon articles having different names, stuff where the only distinct separation is a /Canon or a /Legends really needs to have full updates so we don't have anything to worry about them after the switch. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:16, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see what the problem is with just finishing their edits after the switch. The tab switch can't keep getting put off further and further. Cevan (talk) 13:29, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- It's namely the fact that it puts in a bit of extra work due to needing to type in the "/Legends" afterwards. But if it's final, I guess it's final... Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:53, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should set a new deadline for the switch to "default-Canon." Around the theatrical release date of Episode 7 makes sense, as our readers will be wanting to get as much Canon information as possible at that time.--Richterbelmont10 (come in R2!) 15:32, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should try to do it sooner than that. Putting it off until December seems like a bit much to me. Cevan (talk) 15:39, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- Guys, please just work on filling in the Canon redlinks. You all know that I want to see the default change as much as anyone, but please remember that the reality of the situation is that it needs the support of the entire voting community here, not just the support of the people who want to make the switch. To get that support, the Canon section needs to be as well-built as possible. Talking about deadlines or urgency (the latter of which I agree with) isn't going to change that. The faster we build those pages, the faster this can happen. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:13, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think part of the problem may be that people worry that no matter how much we keep putting up these canon pages, it's just going to keep getting delayed and delayed and nothing is going to actually get done. I don't know, what about a clear goal... what if maybe we could just get a vote saying "if x and x gets done," then yes, we will make the switch. Instead of making it contingent on some nebulous thing being done before we even have a vote. ProfessorTofty (talk) 17:54, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- There's a huge factor you aren't considering: the consensus policy. If a vote on anything regarding the default tab fails, then the threshold for future votes could go up. It could also embolden people to say "Clearly the community doesn't want to make this change." So a failed vote makes getting it done harder. I'd rather get it done slow and correctly than fast and with failure. So is this nebulous? Yes, but it's the only way it's going to happen. People need to chill and just put in the work needed to get this done. It sucks, but it's the reality. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 18:29, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity: At what point do you think a consensus to switch to Canon-default can be guaranteed?--Richterbelmont10 (come in R2!) 18:47, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm working on that. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 18:52, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity: At what point do you think a consensus to switch to Canon-default can be guaranteed?--Richterbelmont10
- There's a huge factor you aren't considering: the consensus policy. If a vote on anything regarding the default tab fails, then the threshold for future votes could go up. It could also embolden people to say "Clearly the community doesn't want to make this change." So a failed vote makes getting it done harder. I'd rather get it done slow and correctly than fast and with failure. So is this nebulous? Yes, but it's the only way it's going to happen. People need to chill and just put in the work needed to get this done. It sucks, but it's the reality. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 18:29, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think part of the problem may be that people worry that no matter how much we keep putting up these canon pages, it's just going to keep getting delayed and delayed and nothing is going to actually get done. I don't know, what about a clear goal... what if maybe we could just get a vote saying "if x and x gets done," then yes, we will make the switch. Instead of making it contingent on some nebulous thing being done before we even have a vote. ProfessorTofty (talk) 17:54, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- Guys, please just work on filling in the Canon redlinks. You all know that I want to see the default change as much as anyone, but please remember that the reality of the situation is that it needs the support of the entire voting community here, not just the support of the people who want to make the switch. To get that support, the Canon section needs to be as well-built as possible. Talking about deadlines or urgency (the latter of which I agree with) isn't going to change that. The faster we build those pages, the faster this can happen. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:13, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should try to do it sooner than that. Putting it off until December seems like a bit much to me. Cevan (talk) 15:39, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should set a new deadline for the switch to "default-Canon." Around the theatrical release date of Episode 7 makes sense, as our readers will be wanting to get as much Canon information as possible at that time.--Richterbelmont10
- It's namely the fact that it puts in a bit of extra work due to needing to type in the "/Legends" afterwards. But if it's final, I guess it's final... Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:53, March 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see what the problem is with just finishing their edits after the switch. The tab switch can't keep getting put off further and further. Cevan (talk) 13:29, March 21, 2015 (UTC)