Forum:SH:Proposed Layout Guide additions for Index Pages

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. C4-DE Bot (talk) 19:07, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:Proposed Layout Guide additions for Index Pages

Alright, time for what will be the final Senate Hall on my proposed Index Page idea. Previous discussions can be found here and here. Below is what I'm proposing we add to the Layout Guide to allow us to start making index pages. I'd appreciate if everyone could take a look and provide any feedback, after which I'll post the CT in about a week's time unless there's significant ongoing discussion. Before anyone mentions it, I'm aware that the page reference for the TROS Expanded Edition is missing from the Carib Diss example. I've got a physical copy of the book coming in the post and will add the page before the CT goes up, but it didn't seem worth holdeng up the discussion just to wait for that. If anyone has ~~access to a physical copy, or~~ other stuff that could be added to the Carib Diss example then let me know below. Ayrehead02 (talk)

Index Page

Example: (from Index:Carib Diss)

This is the index page for [[Carib Diss]].

==Media index==
*[[December 20]], [[2019]]:<ref name="Jedi Redeemed">{{InsiderCite|196|The Jedi Redeemed}}</ref> {{Film|IX}} {{1st}} – [[Disney+]]: 0.48.28-0.48.30; ''[[Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga]]'': Chapter 21. Babu Frik's Workshop, 00.48.38-00.48.40
*[[December 20]], [[2019]]:<ref name="TROS VD">{{Penguin|url=books/607902/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-the-visual-dictionary-by-pablo-hidalgo-foreword-by-chris-terrio|text=Star Wars The Rise of Skywalker The Visual Dictionary|archiveurl=https://archive.is/K380A}}</ref> ''[[Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary]]'' {{1stID|Carib Diss}} – p. 137
*[[March 17]], [[2020]]:<ref name="TROSExpanded">{{Penguin|url=books/609082/the-rise-of-skywalker-expanded-edition-star-wars-by-rae-carson/9780593128404|text=The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition (Star Wars)|archiveurl=https://archive.is/OTPpx}}</ref> ''[[Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition]]'' {{Mo}} – p. 180
*[[March 19]], [[2020]]:<ref name="TROSExpanded" /> [[Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition (audiobook)|''Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition'' audiobook]] {{Mo}} – 5:19:37
*[[March 31]], [[2020]]<ref name="Abrams">{{Abrams|url=product/art-of-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker_9781419740381|text=The Art of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Hardcover)|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20200409211534/https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/art-of-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker_9781419740381}}</ref> ''[[The Art of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker]]'' – p. 124
*[[October 27]], [[2020]]:<ref name="Amazon">{{Amazon|url=gp/product/B08817NS6N|text=The Rise of Skywalker (Star Wars) (Screen Comix)|archivedate=20200622020526}}</ref> [[Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Screen Comix)|''Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker'' Screen Comix]] – p. 131
*[[June 22]], [[2021]]:<ref name="TitanComics">{{TitanComics|url=m/76-star-wars-insider-203|text=Star Wars Insider #203|archivedate=20210613043823}}</ref> {{InsiderCite|203|Neal Scanlan: A Force Reawakended}} {{Po}} – p. 54
*[[August 3]], [[2021]]:<ref name="De Agostini">{{DeAgostini|url=libros-comics/enciclopedia-star-wars|text=Star Wars Encyclopedia|archiveurl=https://archive.is/Qhkeo}}</ref> {{EncyclopediaCite|Din Djarin and Other Bounty Hunters and Criminals}} – p. 71
*[[January 20]], [[2022]]:<ref name="Gameplay Overview">{{LEGOYoutube|video=kRHlJ3WwzDc|text=LEGO® Star Wars™: The Skywalker Saga - Gameplay Overview|archivedate=20220120151747}}</ref> {{LEGOYoutube|video=kRHlJ3WwzDc|text=LEGO® Star Wars™: The Skywalker Saga – Gameplay Overview|archivedate=20220120151747}} – 4:58-4:59
*[[April 5]], [[2022]]:<ref name="Gameplay Overview" /> ''[[LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga]]'' – Playable, Unlocked on [[Kef Bir]]

===Notes and references===
{{Reflist}}

[[Category:Index pages]]

An index page is an optional subpage that can be created in the Index namespace as Index:PAGENAME for any mainspace article. The index page contains a single list of all media from the article's appearances and sources sections listed in chronological release order with release date. Material from the notes and references section or external links section may also be included if the material is directly related to the subject of the article, such as autobiographies or podcast interviews. If no release date is available at all this should be stated and the entry included at the end of the list. The date should be referenced, with a notes and references section at the bottom of the article. The media links should be formatted as in the three aforementioned lists including any media templates and include any additional information templates like {{1st}} or {{Po}}.

Separated from the media with an mdash; each entry in the list will then provide information to aid a reader in locating the information on the subject of the article in said piece of media, including page numbers, timestamps, or other locational aids depending on the type of media in question. A list of the formats for this information is suggested below, but the level of detail that a users adds is up to them: someone providing just chapters rather than page numbers is still more likely to help a future reader then adding nothing at all. Likewise, creating an index page does not require you to fill out every source, even if you can only add locational aids for a single piece of media this is still useful. Notes may also be included if necessary for unusual cases, for example, information no longer present on a still live webpage.

It is also important to note that as index pages are totally optional, they will not be considered during the nomination of status articles or for existing status articles. The only requirement for a status article regarding index pages is that if an index page does exist, it is linked to on the mainspace article, similar to the treatment of the {{Mediacat}} template. The link on the article should use the {{Indexpage}} template, which should be placed directly below the Appearances section heading. If no Appearances section exists, then it should be placed directly below the Sources heading, and if the article also lacks that then place it directly below the External Links section heading.

Index page media type formats

For any piece of media with multiple page ranges or time stamps, separate them with a comma. For any piece of media with multiple editions, separate those editions with a semi-colon. For any character appearing throughout the vast majority of the entire media simply "Throughout"

Film - For each differing edition or service give time range(s) using format provided in the media. Alternatively, scene selection chapters can be provided in place of time stamps for physical media (e.g., Disney+: 0.43.05-0.46.53, 1.45.20; Star Wars: The Complete Saga: Chapter 1; Chapter 12)
Audiobook - Timestamp or range. Alternatively, chapters may also be used, especially for frequently appearing characters.
Book - For each differing edition give page or page range (e.g., p. 23, pp. 50-53). If page numbers not given, count starting from first page after inside cover of the book. Alternatively, chapters can be used for frequently appearing (e.g., Chapters 2, 3-4, 6). For Encyclopedia style books with multiple entries per page, the specific entry may also be listed with the page number if necessary (e.g., ""Farns Monsbee" p. 124"). Note if information is hidden behind a moveable component of the book such as a pull tab or lift-able flap.
Comic - For each differing edition give page or page range (e.g., p. 23, pp. 50-53).
Board games and card games - List all relevant cards or other pieces as well as any page ranges in rulebooks (e.g., "Luke Skywalker" card; Game Piece, Rulebook pp. 30-31)
Video games - Commonly suggested aids include Codex or Database Entry, Level, Coordinates, or Location but given the variable nature of game design other relevant locational aids may be used as needed.
Webpages - Note timestamps for any relevant videos and slide or page numbers or names for any relevant subpages or embedded galleries and tables. (e.g. Story Gallery slides 8, 11, 13; Trivia Gallery slide 6)
Toys - Note if the subject is mentioned only on packaging or in an insert (e.g., Jedi Force File p. 3)

Proposed Layout Guide content ends here

For anyone wondering what the Carib Diss index looks like without the nowiki:

Media index

December 20, 2019:^[1] Star Wars: Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker (First appearance) – Disney+: 0.48.28-0.48.30; Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga: Chapter 21. Babu Frik's Workshop, 00.48.38-00.48.40
December 20, 2019:^[2] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary (First identified as Carib Diss) – p. 137
March 17, 2020:^[3] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition (Mentioned only) – p. 180
March 19, 2020:^[3] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition audiobook (Mentioned only) – 5:19:37
March 31, 2020^[4] The Art of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker – p. 124
October 27, 2020:^[5] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Screen Comix – p. 131
June 22, 2021:^[6] "Neal Scanlan: A Force Reawakended" — Star Wars Insider 203 (Picture only) – p. 54
August 3, 2021:^[7] "Din Djarin and Other Bounty Hunters and Criminals" — Star Wars Encyclopedia – p. 71
January 20, 2022:^[8] LEGO® Star Wars™: The Skywalker Saga – Gameplay Overview on the official LEGO YouTube channel (backup link) – 4:58-4:59
April 5, 2022:^[8] LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga – Playable, Unlocked on Kef Bir

Notes and references

Discussion

Two ideas I've previously discussed on Discord but ultimately not included are making the index into a table and having a single index page covering both continuities for each subject. The table idea was rejected because the extremely long media names or templates more often got split onto multiple lines in table form and looked awful. The multiple continuities page introduced a lot of complications, primarily when a subject has different names in the different continuities and also needing to denote canon or Legends takes up more space in each potentially already lengthy row. Happy to hear further thoughts on these of course. Ayrehead02 (talk) 10:59, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- I actually like a single index page for the same subject, and would suggest keeping the above format but using subsections for Canon media (eg Star Wars: Uprising), Canon and Legends media (eg films) and Legends (eg Star Wars: Bounty Hunter). Multiple names can be handled by noting as such under the subheading and it would still be linked as per your suggestion on each page. The Index page name would use the Canon name of course. I like this proposal, especially the optional aspect of it ;) Manoof (he/him/his) 11:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
  - If we were going to include both on one page then I'd see the main benefit as having one continuous chronological list of releases for the topic, so separating them into subsections kind of defeats that given that with stuff like SWTOR it possibly wouldn't even be chronological any more. At that point it might as well just stay as two separate pages. Ayrehead02 (talk) 11:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
    - I don't think a single page would be a good idea, becuase some cases it is impossible, ie Interdictor-class, Interdictor-class Star Destroyer, Interdictor-class Star Destroyer/Legends. ThrawnChiss7 ^{Assembly Cupola} 15:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Many cheers, glad these may become a thing.—spookywilloww^talk 12:28, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
I love this so much!! Just a tiny note, you say "cast majority" instead of "vast majority". Also, while I don't think it's necessary to codify which to use as long as it's consistent on each page, you have examples that use "pp. 40-53" and her examples that use "p. 40-53". Otherwise, I'm so excited for this! Excellent work!! Dropbearemma (she/her) 12:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! Both corrected. Ayrehead02 (talk) 12:44, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
"The index page contains a single list of all media from the article's appearances, sources, and external links sections listed in chronological release order with release date." I really don't think that external links should be included. We often link to wikipedia pages or listings on the penguin website, so I don't feel that external links should be in the index. Other than that, looks great. -ThrawnChiss7 ^{Assembly Cupola} 13:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're right that Wikipedia links and stuff shouldn't be included, but there's also relevant stuff in there like blog posts or official sources that provide new info that definitely should. I've changed it to say that only official links should be included which would cut out any social media or wikipedia links included there, so hopefully that resolves the issue. Ayrehead02 (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
  - I understand ThrawChiss7 concern, however, I don't think we should proceed by not allowing non-official media (web or paper) in there, especially for OOU. Disqualifying any elements that are used in references don't seems like something we should do if we want to have an exhaustive index. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 13:35, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
    - Hmm, I hadn't really planned to include anything that's just linked in referencing as part of the index page. I think it'd work best as just a list of officially released material in chronological release order. If we start adding in lots of other unofficial stuff into the list of media like podcasts or social media posts I think the page could become quite unwieldly quite quickly, especially since things in references might not even link directly to the subject. Ayrehead02 (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
      - I can understand if you want to draw a line, but then for the context of OOU articles, it sharply decreased the usefulness of this new tool. Even regarding the BTS aspect of IU articles. For example, let's take Christopher Lee or Peter Cushing: this wouldn't allow to list their autobiography. There's a great deals of documents that would be benefit from this tools but would sidelined. To me the issue reside not in listing unofficial documentation, but saying that everything in references and/or external links should go in the Index, which I agree would not be ideal. We shouldn't either outright disallow social media, as there very interesting content that can only be found (for example, a long interview with Filloni on Facebook come to my mind). What should be included in the Index Pages might need a more granular definition. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 15:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
        Hmm, your right that there are some non-official sources like autobiographies that would benefit from the locational aides. I've added a new sentence that allows for stuff directly relating to the subject. That should cut out the majority of wikipedia pages or other stuff that we'd want to avoid. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
        Seems good to me, thanks! NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 17:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Is this for OOU subjects also? ThrawnChiss7 ^{Assembly Cupola} 15:13, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yup, I see it as something we can do for all mainspace articles. George Lucas or Return of the Jedi get mentioned in something like The Star Wars Archives: Episodes IV–VI, 1977–1983, it's useful in many cases to be able to list where. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Would we list the canon databank entries at the end like in the sources list? Also, how would one source the data of a Legends databank entry? —Unsigned comment by ThrawnChiss7 (talk • contribs)
- I'm also curious how we'll format weird cases like how this version of Poe Dameron's databank mentions the Colossus and Kazuda Xiono but the live version doesn't. NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 15:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
  - Entries should ideally be listed by when they were first available with the relevant subject mentioned. For cases where we can't come up with any date at all, we'd list at the end with something like "Date unknown," although hopefully we'd at least be able to narrow down the year in many cases based on archive dates and stuff with a "By 2012" or something. With particularly unusual cases I think we'll just include notes explaining the situation. I've expanded the proposed text to cover this in more detail. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
    - How would you recommend sourcing narrowed dates? NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 21:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
      - So I've added the most basic form of what I think this could look like to Magaloof, since actually this is something relevant to BTS sections as well. Currently it just has that the DB entry had been posted by the earliest backup in the wayback machine, with the reference using the olddate parameter to show that the information being referenced is from that oldest backup. I think this technically works, but if folks did want something more specific for this scenario we could potentially add a new parameter to databank and other relevant templates so that it gives a specific message saying "showing earliest know backup of this page" or something similar. We could also just add a ref note giving more information if people would prefer that. Ayrehead02 (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
        See Forum:SH:Referencing webpage publication dates for continued discussion of this issue. Ayrehead02 (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
How would you recommend formatting Encyclopedia entries like Ultimate Star Wars, New Edition? Often there are many entries on a single page, how would you single a specify entry as the location for the information? NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 15:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, generally I'd still just list that to page level since I don't think checking one page is that strenuous, but I've added a note that allows for individual entries where people see fit to include it. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
I'd also like an example for Episode Guides, since they're abundant. Is it possible to have multiple subject examples for the CT/Policy guide? NBDani (they/them)^{Yeager's Repairs} 15:43, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Added an example for the gallery slides to the webpage section of media format types. Hopefully that covers it clearly enough but we could find a different subject to use as the example rather then Diss if you think that's necessary. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
What's your plan with the CT? Besides allowing for this new page, are you going to try introducing strict ruling on the formatting (akin to Sources and Appearances)? On one hand I fear we might go into instruction creep too fast, but on the other hand, not having a normative policy would unleash some chaos. NanoLuuke^{Cloning Facility} 13:35, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- My plan for the CT was simply to propose adding the content between the "Index page" heading and the "Proposed Layout Guide content ends here" heading to the Layout Guide, in doing so also supporting the adoption of the Index namespace and allowing users to create Index pages. I think the suggested formatting is generally covered there but if there's additional formatting you think needs pinning down then let me know. I'll also note on the CT that if there appears to be clear support for the proposal that I'll put in the request to activate the Index namespace about a week before the vote ends so that it's ready to go once the policy comes into affect. If the vote does then radically shift after that then I suppose I'll just ask them to deactivate it once it closes. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
This looks good, would definitely be helpful in finding background characters and other subjects. Rsand 30 (talk) 11:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

[Jedi_Redeemed-1] "The Jedi Redeemed" — Star Wars Insider 196

[TROS_VD-2] Star Wars The Rise of Skywalker The Visual Dictionary on Penguin Random House's official website (backup link)

[TROSExpanded-3] 3.0 ^3.1 The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition (Star Wars) on Penguin Random House's official website (backup link)

[Abrams-4] The Art of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Hardcover) on Abrams Books' official website (backup link)

[Amazon-5] The Rise of Skywalker (Star Wars) (Screen Comix) on Amazon.com (backup link)

[TitanComics-6] Star Wars Insider #203 on Titan Comics' official website (backup link)

[De_Agostini-7] Star Wars Encyclopedia on De Agostini's official Spain website (backup link)

[Gameplay_Overview-8] 8.0 ^8.1 LEGO® Star Wars™: The Skywalker Saga - Gameplay Overview on the official LEGO YouTube channel (backup link)

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