Forum:SH:Mofferences

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This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Tommy-Macaroni 09:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Splitting out the Mofferences discussion from Immi's thread before it derails it. Here's my original post:

A discussion I think it's relevant to bring up here, but ultimately might need to be split into another thread, is if Mofferences are actually the best model for policy making in general. I personally have started to think that they're perhaps something we should move away from for several reasons, primarily because I think their nature encourages rushing policy through with less room for discussion or research, almost akin to policy barnburners.

Users are realistically only given minutes to read through a policy and consider all its implications, which doesn't really leave a lot of room for going and finding relevant examples or areas of effect on the wiki and so basically means voters have to make a gut reaction. The busy agenda of multiple things can also lead to people feeling less comfortable "making a fuss" and potentially holding proceedings up, especially if they're newer and less certain of things and don't want to dive into potentially very fast moving conversation that they're having trouble keeping up with. With the general vagueness of most items on the agenda, Mofferences also don't really allow for people who are unable to attend to leave absentee votes, which makes the decisions less accessible to those in certain time zones or with certain jobs. The length of some Mofferences, especially for those who are staying up late to attend, can also lead to items later in the agenda being less critically analysed as people become keen to just see it pass and have the meeting end or become more sleepy and less focused.

You could argue that we should just make the pre-meeting list of agenda items more detailed, but then if we're going to have a list of all the proposals up for some time in advance, why not just have them be CTs instead? Another argument in favour of Mofferences is that it makes it quicker and easier to pass simple proposals, but since you have to wait for the Mofference to actually happen it doesn't really end up being implemented any faster and can lead to good proposals taking longer to be implemented then if they'd just been proposed as a CT when they were first thought up. For people worried about simple proposals taking longer than necessary to pass in CTs, I've seen some suggestions from others about potentially slightly reducing the length of CTs in some ways so that could be an option worth thinking about. Ultimately, although Mofferences are a fun idea with a lot of community heritage, I think it's time to consider their practicality for something as important as policy. Ayrehead02 (talk) 07:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Re: accessibility: Aside from time zones and real-life commitments, my one Mofference experience left me feeling that the format also isn't accessible to people whose first language isn't English, who need more time to read and process, who experience anxiety under pressure to make quick decisions, etc. There was no time to really review and consider any of the proposals, and there was a push to hurry up and move on to the next item to get the Mofference done within a certain timeframe. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 08:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I think while it's useful to hash out policies, gather feedback, and have initial discussions on chat platforms, I think it's better if all formal policy change votes to occur on the wiki. It gives people time to think it through, and importantly it makes sure that peoples' votes aren't excluded just because they're not available at a specific time (especially given the various timezones our editors are in), so it's more inclusive. grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 08:37, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree with the above. My biggest concern here is that Mofferences are a far quicker way to get policy changes passed, and policy proposals in Mofferences are usually pretty simple and straightforward so there wouldn't be any objections. I'm thinking that Mofferences should be limited to simple policy changes that no one would disagree with but that would be rather arbitrary, so I think it's best to just discontinue Mofferences in favour of CTs. OOM 224 ༼༽talk༼༽ 09:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I really love the Mofference, especially hosting it, it's a lot of fun. But I have to agree with the above points. While it is useful to speedrun passing policies, I think the costs are too much. Timezones are an issue that mean many users struggle to take part, and the fast-paced nature of the event means some policies aren't fully considered as much as they should be. This isn't helped by the vague list of proposals on the Mofference page, but the proposals themselves are often passed too quickly to fully consider and discuss. I think keeping things to CT, while less fun and more slow, would ultimately make our policies more carefully considered, both in who is involved in the voting process and how much we consider the policy itself. There are other community events we could hold in lieu of this, and CTs could be made quicker, but I think it would be silly to keep the Mofference purely because of the community aspect. Tommy-Macaroni 10:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Fun as they are, Mofferences are not great when it comes to total community involvement. CT threads are far more open, and give everyone an opportunity to speak about their concerns and thoughts. Supreme Emperor (talk) 10:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Nothing to add that hasn't been said, as I agree with previous editors. Just for the anecdote, my only contribution to a Mofference was in full rush mode. I had prepared my presentation in advance, and feed it to the Mofference at the speed of light as we were "behind schedule". Twas kind of fun (with me roleplaying a lawyer ><), but not very optimal. -- NanoLuukeCloning facility 10:46, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • If most new policy changes are really that noncontroversial, what about setting up, ah, omnibus CTs? Like "Proposed Policy Changes for April 2021", say--and then adding and resolving items from that throughout the month, meaning everything would get an adequate public airing without languishing in its own thread that no one bothers to click because it sounds unimportant. And since you can't always predict what minor policy could end up being controversial, maybe something like an inverse of the curbstomp rule, where if something in the bulk thread reaches a certain amount of votes on each side (or prompts a certain amount of debate) it then spins off into its own thread? CooperTFN (talk) 13:37, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • My take: I think a group page would be good to make users go to the proposals before finding out the agenda of them. I don't think it should be sectioned into timeframes, though, as that might indirectly prompt users to propose things earlier in the window of time to give it more visibility. The most beneficial form for Coop's idea would be to organise the CTs (and maybe the rest of the forum) like the status article nomination pages; each CT would have its own page, but all the CTs could be visible on one group page. Braha'tok enthusiast (Hello there) 18:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
      • We could do that, but besides Mofferences we never have that many CTs open at the same time.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm proposing this as an introvert, but what if we move all policy-making to the CT, shorten CTs a little, and then make Mofferences purely a social thing? A cool little quarterly hang-out or something? Maybe a voice call on Discord where we play SWTOR or a tabletop RPG or we watch a movie together? That could be a ton of fun and keep the community aspect while keeping policy-making more open. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) 15:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Funny you should mention that, I've been talking to several users about that exact same idea. I'll dm you the details! Supreme Emperor (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I would be very much in favor of that ^. I've alaways liked the social aspect of Mofferences, but had many of the same issues raised elsewhere on this page-namely, feeling like I have to vote in favor to keep things from slowing down and not really having enough time to understand a policy when it's being debated. I would support a more social-oriented Mofference Fan26 (Talk) 17:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • This would tie in pretty well with the current plans of reviving the SWTOR guild. Cumulonimbus Cloud (Talk) 18:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm personally in favor of moving it all to the CT forum and doing away with Mofferences entirely. Get it all out in front of as many people as possible. IFYLOFD (Talk) 21:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • As a fellow introvert, I like this idea. It would be a great way to get the community together for fun activities. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 22:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Fred, maybe that could mean a non-Saturday Mofference? :P JediMasterMacaroniAdmiral Ackbar RH(Talk) 15:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • As everyone said, I agree that Mofferences, although they're fun and useful to pass policies fast, they don't allow too much time for discussion and they suck for people in other timezones. I believe CTs should be used more as they allow everyone to give their opinion, and if the lenght of CTs is a concern we could always change their duration.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree with basically all the above points. I've been an avid editor here since 2017 and have not been able to attend a single Mofference, especially with being previously a university student and now working in my career in that timeframe. I also like Cooper's idea of an omnibus CT thing, maybe that can be looked into and tweaked. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 21:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Oh, and Fred's idea of converting the Mofferences from policy votes to fun community-driven events is a great idea. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 21:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I've only ever been able to attend two Mofferences in my short time here, but I was able to watch one back in the summer of 2020 because I couldn't figure out how to work IRC. While I have enjoyed attending, it is difficult and sometimes impossible for some to make it to them due to their schedules or the inability to use IRC, which is kind of unfair since they're unable to share their opinions, even though the meeting hardly allows anyone to share their opinions due to time constraints. I agree that abolishing this and transforming it into community-driven events as Fred and SE have been striving for is a far better solution, while leaving amendments and policy changes to the Consensus Track, where everyone can share what they wish with not as limited amount of time as a Mofference. Erebus Chronus (Talk) 21:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Back in the day (I've been doing this too long) a lot of what was discussed at Mofferences ended up being turned into a CT, but they mostly get unanimous support nowadays so they tend to get approved on the night. That doesn't give anybody who can't attend a chance to have their say though, and even people who do attend don't have a lot of time to think things over before voting. I'd be happy to see Mofferences used to discuss ideas, with policy votes done in CTs. Green Tentacle (Talk) 11:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I definitely agree. Moffereces sounded useful because we could pass a ton of changes in just an afternoon but fact is we weren't given any time to think about the proposals and many editors never got a chance at an opinion. ~kill GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 12:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I think GT's idea of having regular gatherings for policy discussion and Fred's idea for regular social events are a really great idea, and repurposing the Mofference name in some form for these would allow us to maintain a part of something a lot of us have enjoyed at times. These could even be made into more informal monthly things, something like the first Saturday or every month or something is a time that we encourage users of all levels of experience to bring new ideas to the table on Discord for us all to discuss and workshop so that they can then start Senate Hall threads or CT votes with confidence and guidance form the community. Then the third Saturday of every month could be something were we encourage a games night or a book club or other social activities. These are all very rough suggestions and I'd love to hear more ideas on how exactly these kind of things could work. We'd also ofcourse ensure these kinds of activities would also still be welcome at any other time as well, but having stuff like this will hopefully help to promote community and discourse. Ayrehead02 (talk) 12:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Why do you say Saturday? JediMasterMacaroniAdmiral Ackbar RH(Talk) 03:31, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
    • My day suggestions were fairly arbitrary just to give an idea. Weekends might allow for people in different timezones to interact if they want to stay up late or get up early, but I'm definitely open to any other suggestions. Ayrehead02 (talk) 09:51, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I really like the concept of Mofferences, and it's a nice tradition. However I agree that it has many drawbacks and I personally have missed some as weekend nights usually aren't fantastic due to real-life commitments. I hope the Mofference name can live on as a policy discussion forum (like GT proposed above) and/or as a social hang-out (like Fred proposed above). 1358 (Talk) 17:25, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Adding my two cents but I agree with most everyone here. Mofferences don't serve the community as best they could. I can recall multiple policies I've voted in support of that I later came to regret, given more time to think about them. This is much less likely with CTs. And of course, the issue of accessibility is another important reason that I think it's time to retire the Mofference in it's current iteration, though as many have noted the general concept of the event shouldn't disappear entirely. I especially like Ayre's idea of a kind of monthly summit for bouncing ideas off of each other. That could become a very helpful and even fun thing to look forward to. RattsT (talk) 09:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • With 20+ people responding, it seems to me that we have a clear consensus on retiring Mofferences as a policy vote meeting, less clear on exactly how to repurpose the name or do non-voting meetings to discuss policy. Is this ready for a formal CT vote re: Mofference retirement? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I'd say further discussion on how to evolve the Mofference is needed before a CT is ready. The nice thing about Mofferences is that they don't have to take place, so we really have all the time we need to discuss this, unlike policies that are actively being enforced everyday. MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) 21:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
      • No rush on that! :) Just seems we're ready to start talking details about the fuuutuuuure and what it looks like. (So many dots now!) Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 00:09, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Maybe this page needs a new section, "The Future of Mofferences" or something like that. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 01:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

What next?

OK, so we all seem to be in agreement that we should no longer use the Mofference for determining consensus and changing policy. The question now is: what shall we replace it with? We've had suggestions of a purely social gathering, with movie or game nights, possibly making use of our Discord's newly created #social channel. Would we want voice chats? Or, should we use Mofferences as a way to discuss policy ideas, with an eye to then moving ones we like to CT? The nice thing about this is that we can experiment. Test some new events and see what works.

One thing I'd like to add is that I'd suggest we use a different name for any new Mofference-like summits we begin. That means we can cleanly retire and archive Wookieepedia:Mofferences, and can then make a new page for the new event should we wish. If we kept the Mofference in name, that page may become a little confusing, as we'd have to explain that the Mofference isn't totally retired, while also making the old logs visible, yet clear we no longer use the Mofference for policy changes. But, for now, what do you guys think we should try doing for these new meetings? And should we keep the name "Mofference"? Tommy-Macaroni 08:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Name change: Yes, per Tommy rationale. Policies discussion event: Yes, something monthly or quarterly ?). Social gathering: Yes, I really love this idea, I would suggest to do it every two weeks, so that every month we have two events but aimed at different time zone? And instead on settling on only a thing or two, we cycle between activities? --NanoLuukeCloning facility 10:03, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Whatever we try policy-event-wise, I suggest we do a trial run before we commit it to an official "this is how we do it"—and see if the Jedi Prince/Glove of Darth Vader books or other stories have another fun name to contribute ;) (Don't make me turn this Moffship around!) I agree that keeping the name "Mofference," while nostalgic, would be confusing since it would no longer be a Mofference. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 17:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Would Grand Mofference be in the running? :P Tommy-Macaroni 17:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • A name change would be a good idea to help avoid confusion. Fresh out of ideas for names... though perhaps we can brainstorm the kind of things we want from the Mofference replacement(s), or even do some test events, and come up with names from there. I personally like the idea of having both social gatherings and policy idea discussion sessions. The different types of events could (or should) have different names to distinguish them from each other. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 19:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)