Forum:CT:Links to German version

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Links to German version

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The result of the debate was do not change German interlanguage links. 1358 (Talk) 11:25, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Some time ago, it has - or rather has not - been discussed here to shift links for the German version to Jedipedia.net.

Why do I say, it has rather not been discussed? Well, the issue has not yet exactly been discussed. For one, threre was no trace of any "et altera pars audiatur", as Tm_T has already pointed out in the only "Discussion" point of said thread. Furthermore, as Tm_T mentioned as well, the argument was more or less "colourful" in its wording, saying e.g. "... some idiots who were clueless enough to move to Wikia" - which means insult to jedipedia.de.

Meanwhile, as Alexa page ranking shows, jedipedia.de is a well-known website, while the .net ist left behind by far.

Therefore, I suggest on behalf of jedipedia.de to restore all the altered links back to the original site. Voting on this may only begin after at least seven days of discussion. Riverworld 00:08, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Boo-frickety-hoo. I'm not going to pull any punches. Moving to Wikia was an idiotic move. It's like a free-roaming cow voluntarily moving to a dairy farm to get out of the rain. I'm sorry some people can't admit that was a bad trade. We wouldn't even be here if we hadn't gotten so big before it totally went to shit. We're just stuck. Now, as far as I can tell (not speaking German), there was more consensus here to change the links than there was on Jedipedia to move the whole damn site. If any of the people who had been in favor of moving the site had bothered to try to build links to other communities before packing up and moving to North Korea Wikia, we might have seen some more evidence to the contrary, but apparently your lazy webmaster was as bad at that as he was at webmastering. He also probably should have asked us poor Wiki-serfs about our oppressors first. 20-20 hindsight, and all that. We worked with the people at Jedipedia to create the {{Interlang}} system specifically to allow us to change our links to the German and French Star Wars wikis because Wikia won't allow their subject wikis that level of control. Now, I'm going to pretend you didn't just try to tell us how to run the consensus track, because we already have rules for that. Some of which govern eligibility and the number of participants required. Good luck. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 01:21, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

  • I would like to thank Riverworld of his selective quoting, but also recommend him to try discuss before launching CT. Please do some preparation before setting up voting, that way it has more chances to survive. Also, revoting on this with given reasons, as in, "lack of information from both sides", without giving the said information, is pointless. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 13:27, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
    • Hence the seven days period, which was not meant to hinder voting, but to enable discussion. What I consider most fascinating in an intelligent species is the ability of rational thought and discussing items in a proper way. This said, the point is: The reasons for jp.de's transition to Wikia, as given by its founder Premia on June 11, 2011 were as following. Due to a strong increase in both access and membership, the servers which formerly hosted jp.de tended to become irreliable, i.e. they were down for longer periods, especially when Star Wars movies had been broadcasted on TV. Second reason was a certain need for specialized professionals, especially software engineers. Third reason was the access to each and every software enhancement that wikimedia provides. (Full statement in German can be read on the .de website, which is blocked out by the spam filter.) Unfortunately, the reasons of the .net founders for leaving are unbeknownst to us, since they left without any discussion. It is success which counts, so let me give you some figures as well (at 15:50 GMT on February 21, 2012): Alexa ranking: .de 155,564; .net 950,494. Sites linked in: .de 438; .net: 103. Number of articles: .de 25,930; .net 28,365. Membership: .de 1,614; .net 5,434 (The .net counts all including those of the former .de). Active Users: .de 225; .net 157 (Users with at least one edit during the last 91 days) Sources: [www.alexa.com Alexa]; statistics pages of both sites. Last but not least some questions, which arose in my mind the other day: Why is Wookieepedia still with Wikia, if they treat their milk cows so badly? And why do some people here react in such an emotional way? What is the weak spot I may have hit? Riverworld 16:44, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
      • They way you said it clearly implied that there was supposed to be no voting before seven days had passed, which is in no way supported by our voting rules. Aside from your statistics (tl;dr)…Wookieepedia is spelled with two e's. And if we had a reliable host to go to, and Wikia agreed to close this wiki, I'm pretty sure the userbase would agree to move off-Wikia. We're essentially trapped here, seeing as Wikia's search engine rankings would be way higher than that of a new site. It's very hard to successfully fork from Wikia unless the Wikia wiki is closed.
        And don't even try to call any users on this site unintelligent, which you implied above. That won't be tolerated.
        Wookieepedia will change its links to jedipedia.de if and only if there's new consensus to do this. You're going to need 28 voters or more and a 2:1 ratio for it to pass. Vote farming is not allowed—something you were warned for. Good luck with that. 1358 (Talk) 17:09, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
      • I can see that those server issues would be a reasonable motive to move. The third reason I don't get; why can't Jedipedia[dot]net upgrade to newer mediawiki releases? If anything, they have the benefit of not having a load crap forced on them by Wikia as we do here. The important question for me, and others I'm sure, is if you could link us to a consensus on Jedipedia/net before the fork that shows the majority of users wanted to move to Wikia. If the majority didn't support the move to Wikia, then why should we go against the original community's wishes? —NAYAYEN 20:24, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
      • FWIW, you have already turned me off from any idea you may have from the attitude that you presented when you came in here. I don't remember seeing your name around here before, and all of a sudden you march in here and presume to tell us what to do and how to do it. As has been stated by Culator and Xd already, we have rules against some of the things you've proposed and done, including our no-personal attack policy. If you insist on continuing this Consensus Track, I suggest you try a different approach and change your attitude.—Cal JediInfinite Empire (Personal Comm Channel) 22:01, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
        • Concerning PA I only quote Wookieepedia's rules: "Personal attacks do not include civil language used to describe an editor's actions, and when made without involving their personal character, should not be construed as personal attacks." On the other hand: "Profanity directed against another contributor" as in "... some idiots who were clueless enough..." obviously is a PA.
          @1358: May I or may I not add some specification to the rules, which only mean disadvantage to the issue I offered? And never have I called users "unintelligent" or such implied, since Wookiees are renowned as an intelligent species.
          @Nayayen: Thank you for your moderate comment. Not having seen former events, I am not able to give more information than that I quoted above. Looking into other people's heads ist not my profession.
          @Cal Jedi: What approach do you suggest? I may be older in years than you (I'll reach the half of a century this year), have a 30 years' experience in computing ... should I send you a copy of my passport? To be exact, of all my passports? My Diploma? My movie theatre tickets? Honestly? Is experience dependent on how long someone has contributed to Wookieepedia? Is it measurable at all? Riverworld 01:26, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
          • Age on this wiki is irrelevant. If a five year old is mature enough, he can be administrator. If a seventy year old is acting like a two year old, he will be blocked. Keeping civility and following the rules established on Wookieepedia has nothing to do with the age you are or any computer knowledge you may possess.—Cal JediInfinite Empire (Personal Comm Channel) 01:31, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
            • Well, Cal Jedi, you read my post diligently. I appreciate that you took the time for it and that you did not reject it as utter nonsense, or an old man's babbling. Riverworld 01:43, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
      • As proposed by, here comes the post, where the active useres of jedipedia at the point of the forking express their wish not to move to wikia: de:Jedipedia:Administratoren/Probleme/Archiv. As this is on jedipedia.de you should find it a sufficient source, i only hope posting this here does not lead to it being deleted... (If that happens, we still have the same discussion logged in our wiki. As you are quoting Alexa ratings, this is not clearly a pro point for you either. Net is not even a year old, whilst we had many years to improve de's standing with search engines. Net's pagerank is getting closer to de's every day... And again, i think it's interessting, that a user, that joined jedipedia in only January now tries to argue about stuff, he does not have any firsthand knowledge of. More he is probably proposed with the stronly biased view of certain people... Darth PandoraTell me more... 07:42, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  • Wow, some of you have forgotten the first tenant of the Jedi code...on another note, thank you Riverworld for bringing a new light to the discussion, but I still don't see why I should change the way I voted from the first time. Corellian PremierRobotechAll along the watchtower 16:38, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
    • Thank you, Darth Pandora, for providing this link. While still assuming good faith, I feel that some of Darth Pandora's points should be adjusted.
      The page on the .de (which to delete is certainly not .de's policy) had nothing to do with voting. Basically, it was a petition headlined "Overthrow the Imperator" and –for all those here who don't speak German seemed to be intended as more or less of a pool for those whishing to take leave of the .de and join .net, which already had been Pandora's new project at that time. And not even all of them disagreed with the move to Wikia (cf. e.g. #17 and #43). So this was anything but a vote, at least not about the issue of moving the site, it could be seen as an attempt to entice users away from the .de community. For one or another reason (such as personal issues with the founder, Premia) people signed there - not necessarily because they objected the move to Wikia. Moreover, there was no alternative to vote for, so that deducting a "48:0" ratio means, to say the least, slightly misinterpreting the facts.
      Secondly, as you can see from the timestamps, the discussion thereunder dated from 2009 and was in no point connected to the Wikia move. Pandora's statement was not at all discussed, as it was an outright "stay-or-leave" (or rather simply "leave") appeal.
      In effect I more and more come to the conclusion, that already the first voting on this issue here has been made under the influence of erronous premises.
      Concerning myself, I knowingly decided to actively take part in the .de and not in the .net community, the reasons of which are quite irrelevant here. Who is biased and who is not I shall leave to the reader to decide.
      Last point: The question, which one the fork and which one the original, is not part of this voting, hence this word should be deleted from the capture below, I don't do that by myself in order not to be accused of vandalism. The captures as such are indeed helpful, I must admit that I simply forgot them. Riverworld 19:22, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
      • It's been changed. 1358 (Talk) 19:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
        • It's not Pandora's but the community's project. Actually, User:Darth Schorsch intended to write a some thousand bytes about this topic and reduced it to this, a sign to Premia his stubborn move was "not liked" by the community. Every user who signed was/is against his decision. Your two examples have proven wrong: #17 just didn't recognize the problem and further edit on jedipedia.net, #43 (both variants, appearently both sides have another count) is/are/ .net user/s. "Personal issues" with Premia were created by his incompetence in developing Jedipedia. btw, the page is an archive, so yes, the posts below are older discussions. The problems that lead to this page (and some other problems I don't need to explain further) are described in the text above the petition. I don't see why who see an error here. To sum up, I have to agree with Pandora: For someone who Jedipedia in January you seem to have a great all-around view of this topic I have already seen of other people. Greetings, Nahdar Vebb 19:48, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
          • Nahdar has already pointed out nearly everything about that topic from our archive, so I will just stress the emotional atmosphere of last year. At that time the sysops had a private forum where they discussed the move to Wikia for months prior, with Premia being the only sysop for such a move, and all users were informed about the discussion in the chat. So that's why the topic by Darth Schorsch was only meant as a summary and does not go very much into detail, and that's also why you won't find too much information about the move more than half a year later. But rest assured, the topic has been discussed in length both privately by the sysops and by the users, even before plans to create .net were made. And the overarching argument—which in my opinion is mentioned far too little—is our independence, and this outweighs all other practical arguments regarding server costs and technical maintenance, because these can be dealt with, but independence cannot be reclaimed once relinquished. My vote stands for Jedipedia.net! --C-3P0 20:53, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
            • First of all, I would like to give thanks to those, who have provided some substantial input to this discussion, especially C-3PO and Nahdar Vebb. Yes, I joined the .de community only in January, but be assured that I have both the intellectual capacity and the experience in life to overlook such discussion.
              One point I would like to stress is that times and circumstances have changed. New authors (like me), new admins and sysops (who, btw, now are elected instead of co-opted) have come; new policies of participation have been implemented.
              Well, independency is a neat parole, but what does it really mean? For sure Wikia is not Paradise, but on the other hand in my opinion it is some lightyears away from being a dictatorship. After all, this is a leisure time project which actually should be run in a professional way, but without all the furor some people seem to put into this. Rage is not a good counsellor. So think rationally, weigh up arguments against one another an then decide. And remember what C-3PO pointed out: That the poll had been taken in a quite emotional atmosphere. Riverworld 22:35, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
              • You complain about no discussion having taken place. This probably happened, because there just was noone there at the de branch to speak on behalve of de. I remember Premia trying to make a stand, which eventually lead to him accusing the wookieepedia admins of being puppets of the net branch (some might remember the fun we had about this). The only conclusion we can take out of this is, that the jedipedia we have always worked with is completely represented by the net branch, whilst de are just some opportunistic users that decided to take over all the work the real jedipedia-people have done in the past and take credit for all their achievements. 78.43.14.31 12:20, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
                • Being the adressee, I would like to say a few words concerning the post above. At the .de, we have created roughly a third of our articles anew, often covering fields the .net does not comprise, in at least one case a topic unheard of even on wookieepedia, and contributed here. If one takes the time to compare .de against .net articles covering the same topic, or looks into the history section of many articles, this person will find that much change and, hopefully, improvement has taken place. As for us, there is no need complaining about spilled milk. On the .de, nobody would ever concern themselves with groaning about a new .net article displaying astounding resemblence, both in topic and in wording, to an article recently published on .de, since competition fuels growth. Riverworld 02:11, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Votes

Keep links to Jedipedia.net

  1. 48-to-0 support by the original community for moving to .net. The only real reason to support the Wikia hosted one is that being Wikia-hosted gives them an automatic lead in search rankings. The .net members still control the original bot and Twitter account. It's pretty clear which wiki is the legitimate one to me. —NAYAYEN 09:53, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  2. I see no reason to change this. 1358 (Talk) 19:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  3. Hooray for Not Wikia. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 20:08, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  4. My opinion has not changed since the last vote. --C-3P0 20:53, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  5. Boo-yah.—Cal JediInfinite Empire (Personal Comm Channel) 23:11, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  6. I see no reason to change the way I voted the first time. Corellian PremierRobotechAll along the watchtower 23:47, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
  7. I see no reason why Wookieepedia can't link to two German-language wikis, but that'd probably be a separate CT. —Silly Dan (talk) 04:10, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  8. Per Dan.--Exiled Jedi Oldrepublic crest (Greetings) 04:35, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  9. You know what they say about things that are not broken... Trak Nar Ramble on 04:43, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  10. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 04:45, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  11. Nahdar Vebb 06:03, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  12. I have spent countless hours on discussing this in private, with both "sides" of an argument, and I understand the situation. But I do not understand why someone come and set up a vote again without discussing with both Wookieepedians and "the other jedipedians" so to speak. The lack of preparation, the lack of discussion, the lack of... blargh, there's no point changing anything based on this now. So I vote we are the way we are now, for now. Is the user who presented this vote even representing any group or only themselves? Coffee I need (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 06:34, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  13. Per old CT. Gulomi Jomesh 09:49, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  14. --ARC-Captain Fordo 10:55, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
    --KarVastor Jedi-Bibliothek 14:24, February 23, 2012 (UTC) (User doesn't meet voting requirements. 1358 (Talk) 14:31, February 23, 2012 (UTC))
  15. —MJ— Jedi Council Chambers Thursday, February 23, 2012, 18:46 UTC
  16. Green Tentacle (Talk) 21:50, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  17. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:25, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  18. Per 1138. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 22:53, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  19. Jinzler 22:55, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  20. IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 23:48, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
  21. Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 09:29, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
  22. CC7567 (talk) 03:11, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Change links to jedipedia.de (jedipedia.wikia.com)

  1. No appropriate discussion in the first place, no opportunity to vote for this. Facts and figures speak for themselves. So yea, put them back to .de Riverworld 22:35, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.