Forum:CT:Individual track articles

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The result of the debate was No consensus. Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:14, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I recently discovered that we decided a couple years ago to not create articles for the actual tracks on a soundtrack unless they had their own specific theme/motif, and that we should create articles for all of the actual themes/motifs themselves. Personally, I find this to be incongruous with regard to the soundtracks as well as logic. Having articles for some tracks but not others just doesn't make sense to me—especially if we're going to make articles for every "theme/motif" that exists. I don't really care exactly what we do with the theme/motif articles and the individual track articles, but I do think that we need to be consistent and logical in our presentation of them. So I'm throwing out a vote to reorganize how we handle articles for individual tracks and themes/motifs.

  • Option 1: Keep things inconsistent as they are now—keep all the articles on themes/motifs, and only allow some articles on individual tracks
  • Option 2a: Create articles for each individual track off of the soundtracks, and keep all of the articles for themes/motifs
  • Option 2b: Create articles for each individual track off of the soundtracks, and delete/redirect all of the articles for themes/motifs
    • (Note that both 2a and 2b include creating articles for individual tracks, so in the case of a "no consensus" vote between the two it should result in creating the individual track articles and keeping the themes/motifs, since current policy allows the theme/motif articles)
  • Option 3: Redirect/merge all of the themes/motifs and all of the individual track articles to the appropriate soundtrack articles. All of the information on themes/motifs and the individual tracks could just be presented in the articles for the entire soundtracks themselves.
  • Option 4: Delete/redirect all individual track articles, and keep all themes/motifs—basically, do what we're doing now, but present all of the individual themes as just that: individual themes; don't present them as individual track articles

Please discuss any concerns, questions, further voting options, etc. in the Discussion area below. Thank you. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:20, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Voting

Option 1

The way we do it now seems fine to me. I don't see it as inconsistent. The only reason certain tracks get articles is because they are actually single pieces or themes that happened to get a whole track dedicated to them. In other words, it's not really the tracks themselves getting the articles, only the motifs contained in the tracks. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:25, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Option 2a

I'm not crazy about the idea of deleting our articles on tracks such as The Imperial March and Duel of the Fates. IMO, they're as notable as the motifs. Menkooroo 00:49, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
  1. Chack Jadson (Talk) 19:22, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
  2. For me, it was between this and option 3; essentially, all or nothing. I'm gonna go with hyperinclusionism this time around. Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 04:39, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
  3. We shall lobby as one! NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 20:02, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
  4. I don't really see how these are hurting anything, but I would remain on a case-by-case basis. Generally thoroughly fleshed out articles would be more worthy of inclusion. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:24, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
  5. 1358 (Talk) 12:47, February 14, 2011 (UTC)
  6. Per Menk, per Trayus, per Riff. For everything within the canon, we don't tend to sit around arguing what deserves to be an article. If it exists, it exists and we have an article for it. This needs to extend to licensed OOU works. Graestan(Talk) 15:44, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
  7. Alright, I'm convinced. But whether or not an article is "thoroughly fleshed out" should not be part of the deciding factor on whether or not it needs to be deleted. Articles should be deleted or kept based on whether or not we need to cover their topic at all. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 15:57, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
    • Indeed! Graestan(Talk) 15:58, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
      • I see it like this: track is to soundtrack as chapter is to book. There are things in the tracks that are worthy of an article, but the tracks themselves don't need one. But if this vote goes in favor of this option, I won't be too worried. It's better then deleting them all. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:11, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
  8. Pretty much per Trayus. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:37, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
  9. OLIOSTER (talk) 10:38, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
  10. Guess so. The above have convinced me. CC7567 (talk) 08:41, February 26, 2011 (UTC)
  11. Korsa3 03:32, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Option 2b

Inclusionism, mainly. It's like how we have articles for every IU song, no matter how vague. There isn't really a reason not to have them on the songs that actually exist. And, as Freddy has proven, good articles can come out of them, though they should have some more technical backing. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 00:14, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Option 3

Call me crazy, but I don't see any reason that all of the information for individual tracks and themes/motifs couldn't just go into subsections of the full soundtrack articles themselves. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:20, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • And as a side-note for themes that appear in more than one soundtrack: we could just mention them in all of the soundtrack articles that apply; no reason we'd have to mention them in just one. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:50, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Option 4

  1. It's not the tracks that are notable, it's the themes. If any theme articles also happen to be presented as a single track, then that's coincidence. They should be articles on the themes. While any tracks should simply be merged into the soundtrack articles, some of the themes appear in more than one soundtrack. NAYAYEN—it appears to be a frammistat 19:47, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  2. Per Nayayen. However, I'm not seeing how we're not already presenting them as themes rather than tracks. Could somone elaborate? MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 21:46, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  3. Per Nayayen. Master Jonathan New Jedi Order (Jedi Council Chambers) 22:44, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  4. I'd say "The Imperial March and "Duel of the Fates" count as themes/motifs, and wouldn't be deleted as Menkooroo fears above. Beyond that, tracks on CDs are merely for convenience's sake and bear little resemblance to the compositions that Williams made. ~ SavageBob 06:45, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
  5. Different editions of the soundtracks have different track titles and formats, but the themes remain the same (and appear on multiple tracks in different scores, too.) —Silly Dan (talk) 04:34, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
  6. JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 04:59, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
  7. This plays directly into the question of what we want this encyclopedia to be. For now, I'm sticking with this. — Fiolli; 15:54, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
  8. Per Savage Bob. Corellian PremierRobotechAll along the watchtower 15:13, February 14, 2011 (UTC)
  9. Per all of the above. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 21:12, February 23, 2011 (UTC)
  10. —Xwing328(Talk) 06:11, February 25, 2011 (UTC)
  11. I've changed my mind on this one. Taking an actual look at our articles on Duel of the Fates and The Imperial March helped. :D Our articles are currently on motifs, not tracks --- we have an article on The Droid Invasion, not on "The Droid Invasion and the Appearance of Darth Maul." Which is the name of the track. Menkooroo 15:32, February 28, 2011 (UTC)
    • But not the name of the track on every CD on the market. Mine is just the droid invasion. Graestan(Talk) 02:41, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
  12. Per what has been said above. Also, find this to be a bit analogous to reprints and/or reappearances of comic/short stories: if some short comic strip is published on several different occasions, we don't have an article for all those occasions. (I know it's cloumsy analog but still) –Tm_T (Talk) 11:16, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion area

  • To clarify a little better in response to Master Fred above: the problem is that we don't present them as themes/motifs, we present them as individual track articles, and so we're being inconsistent in how we present the articles. Readers who come by these articles probably wouldn't catch on to what we're doing right off the bat, and would wonder why in the world we have articles for only a handfull of individual tracks, and all the rest just themes/motifs. In response to this, I've added voting Option 4. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 19:32, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
  • People seem to be getting the idea that tracks such as The Imperial March might be deleted if articles on individual tracks are banned. First off, there are no articles on tracks, only concert suites, motifs, and IU pieces. It is simply for convenience that some of these get their own track on the soundtracks. The article on Imperial March is not about the track on TESB soundtrack, but rather about the theme contained in the track. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:26, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
  • Since I'm probably gonna be the one to create all these articles if the vote goes that way, how on Earth would we go about this? I see no way to do it consistently. For instance, TPM soundtrack has a totally different track arrangement from the Ultimate Edition one. The same goes with the OT soundtracks. There are multiple versions of these albums with different track names. There really is no way to remain consistent and not be redundant, IMO. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 19:43, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
    • If the track is the same, then say "also known as [blarg], [derp], [wikia]..." in the article. There does not need to be a new article every time a new title is used. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 18:38, March 12, 2011 (UTC)
      • No, I mean if the tracks are different but contain some of the same music. The Ultimate Edition has all the music in the original soundtrack, but it's arranged as it was in the movie. We would have and article for both tracks just because they are not exactly the same, even if they contain a whole piece that's the same. Some of these tracks are the same. There's just no way to do it consistently. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 23:21, March 12, 2011 (UTC)