Forum:CT:Imperial Remnants IU article/Disambig page

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Imperial Remnants IU article/Disambig page
This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was make Imperial Remnants an in-universe article on the term. OOM 224 (he/him) 18:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Following the discussion in this Senate Hall thread, I'm moving forward with this CT to formalize the community consensus on this subject.

To summarize: the Imperial remnants have become a very important subject in current Star Wars; the current article we have on the subject (contrary to its Legends counterpart) is merely a disambiguation page instead of an IU-style description; finally it's not perfectly clear yet what Disney's intentions with the Remnant are. Different sources suggest different interpretations: from Star Wars Character Encyclopedia: Updated and Expanded "Moff Gideon is smart and relentless as he leads a portion of the Imperial Remnant"; from the opening crawl of Part One: Master and Apprentice: "Once presumed dead, rumors are spreading of Thrawn's return which would galvanize the IMPERIAL REMNANTS and start another war"; from The Star Wars Book: "Imperial Remnant Rogue members of the Galactic Empire who refuse to abide by the surrender of the Galactic Concordance and who operate from the fringes of space." There have so far been the following suggestions (from the SH, in order of proposal):

  1. Keep the disambiguation page and if/when more information on the subject emerges, create an IU article to cover it;
  2. Create an IU article covering the Remnant as a general term referring to the several separate remnants, like the Separatist holdouts;
  3. Create an IU article covering the Remnant as a singular organization comprising multiple sub-fractions that intentionally make themselves seem separate;
  4. Create an IU article covering only the Shadow Council forces, as they are the "true" Imperial remnant.

AxMech (talk) 12:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Postpone further discussion until more information is revealed

In-universe article about the Imperial Remnants (plural, separate)

  1. I believe that the page on the Imperial Remnants should be similar to the Separatist holdouts page, but simply with the singular term "Imperial Remnant" as the page name to be consistent with the way other pages are handled on the wiki (such as the singular term Night Trooper being used on a page).Drour1234 (talk) 03:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per discussion below, I think it should get an IU page like Separatist holdouts, because of their similarities. Rsand 30 (talk) 19:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  3. It's not a singular organization because some remnants are not necessarily related to the Shadow CouncilPureBeskar (talk) 21:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  4. Like the Sep holdouts, yeah. its possible we will also need to make a "Imperial Remnant/Canon" page as well but we also need one for the various remnants Editoronthewiki (talk) 13:39, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  5. Per editor, a page about the organization may also need to be created, but for now a sep holdout style article is best. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 13:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  6. Panther436 (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  7. This is the best way to handle this article, until we know further at least. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 17:11, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
  8. OOM 224 (he/him) 17:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
  9. Fan26 (Talk) 17:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
  10. Per discussion below. "Imperial Remnant" is clearly a defined term based on canon sources cited above. "Imperial Remnants" should have its own page, but "Imperial Remnant" should have its own page, or clearly distinguished as its own term (not an organization) on same page Reddyredcp (talk) 22:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
  11. Following the discussion on Discord and in this thread I believe that current Canon strongly promotes the idea of a separated Imperial Remnant -although some fractions are more united than othersAxMech (talk) 21:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
  12. NanoLuukeCloning Facility 16:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
  13. Jkirk8907 (talk) 17:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
  14. —spookywillowwtalk 17:54, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

In-universe article about the Imperial Remnant (singular organization)

AxMech (talk) 12:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Jkirk8907 (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
I believe that the page should be on the Imperial Remnant as a term, not an organization, since it is not known what the remnants call themselves and they aren’t really an organization. I am picking this choice and the choice above because I think they should be combined, but with “Imperial Remnant” as the page title. Despite this, I would revoke my vote for this option, though I am fine with any of the options as long as I can still vote that the page name should be "Imperial Remnant". An example of articles being singular is how the page on Night Troopers is Night Trooper and not "Night Troopers". I believe that the page on the Imperial Remnants should be similar to the Separatist holdouts page, but simply with the term "Imperial Remnant" as the page name.Drour1234 (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Sorry but you'll just need to strike one of your votes here. "Plural, separate" and "singular organization" are inherently contradictory and consensus between either of the two present choices cannot be determined by voting for both at the same time. OOM 224 (he/him) 09:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Shadow Council only

Discuss

  • While I agree that more information is needed until we determine what precisely SW writers' intentions are with the Remnant(s), I strongly believe it is important to have an IU article about it/them already to facilitate readers and new visitors who will be newly interested thanks to Ahsoka.AxMech (talk) 12:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
  • In Part Seven: Dreams and Madness, the capitalized term “Imperial Remnant” is used by the New Republic to refer to the activities of all of the remnants of the Galactic Empire. The plural term “Imperial Remnants” was used in the opening crawl of Part One: Master and Apprentice in relation to each remnant in their own right. As such, I believe that the Imperial remnants page should be moved to Imperial Remnants with no change to the page content and the contents of associated pages.Drour1234 (talk) 03:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Please mark comment as spoiler as per the Spoiler Policy.AxMech (talk) 06:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC) My bad, spoiler tag on top of the page covers spoilers in the body.
  • I will echo the sentiment that more information is needed, or needs to be gathered if there already is some out there in various novels and reference books. It seems to me that it is more accurate to describe the "Imperial Remnant" as a term that refers to multiple Imperial remnants, rather than as an independent organization, however, as it were in Legends. As for Imperial remnants, that should either be turned into a page similar to Separatist holdouts, or should remain as a disambig page, while "Imperial Remnant" can be the page that is treated similar to Separatist holdouts, assuming it is more accurate to describe it as a term rather than an organization/entity. Either way, I don't think it should be deleted or replaced by Imperial Remnant, as there are clearly multiple remnants. Thanks Reddyredcp (talk) 03:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
    • That is what I am saying. As of the most recent episode of Ashoka, the plural term “Imperial Remnants” is used as a collective term rather than an actual organization, despite Hera believing that it does. The reference to the plural term in the opening crawl of the first episode seems to be a term rather than an organization.Drour1234 (talk) 03:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Going to agree with this, the latest Ahsoka episode states that there was not really coordination between the Imperial Remnants. I like the suggestion as treating it like Separatist holdouts, since that is a similar situation, and I do think an IU page for the Remnants could be useful. Rsand 30 (talk) 12:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
    • I have made a user page to visually show what I am proposing should happen with the Imperial remnants page.Drour1234 (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
      • Although I'm on board with the way the article intro is worded, it falls into the same pitfalls as our current one; imo it's not meant to be a disambiguation page listing all remnants one after the other; rather, am article with the collective information about the timeline of the remnants' formation, unification, emergence and/or dissolution (History), as well as their general Goals and Equipment, etc. AxMech (talk) 16:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
        • I was mainly just focusing on the introduction because I was not confident that I could do the rest.Drour1234 (talk) 20:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
      • I appreciate the work, but I'm not sure if I entirely agree with this either. It seeems to me that "Imperial Remnant" and "Imperial remnants" are separate concepts. I do think that they could perhaps share the same article since they may be somewhat redundant. I made two separate user pages myself (here and here; note that they are WIP) and found that they could be written very similarly, the only distinction being what each article focuses on more. But I think a distinction also needs to be made between Imperial remnants (the various holdouts, etc.) and the Imperial Remnant (a term referring to the collaboration between some holdouts to restore the Empire). Reddyredcp (talk) 17:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
        • I agree with your user pages. However, I do think that both could be combined since while the term “Imperial Remnant” was used by the New Republic, the term “Imperial Remnants” was used in the opening crawl of episode one. It is not known what the remnants call themselves. Therefore, I believe that the main subject of an in-universe page should be the term “Imperial Remnant”.Drour1234 (talk) 20:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)