Wookieepedia:Votes for deletion/True Sith

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep - Sikon [Talk] 06:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC).

True Sith

Keep

  1. Just because some people don't like the idea doesn't mean we can ignore it. The True Sith are canon; they deserve an article as much as anything else. -- Havac 23:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  2. —Silly Dan (talk) 23:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  3. Keep - down with deletionism (just kidding) KEJ 08:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  4. As mentioned above -- the True Sith are 100 percent, bona fide legitimate canon, and are clearly, unequivocally delineated as a separate entity during the game. Anyone who says or thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention to the game's own bluidie dialogue...and there are other reasons for my voting thus (see below). Why is this is even under discussion ? It boggles the mind. --The Bandsaw Vigilante, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
  5. Jasca Ducato 18:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  6. Cato Neimoidia 20:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  7. SithPower--I'm for keeping the page.
  8. They are canon, allthough not much more than a name at present. Charlii 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Delete

  1. Sikon [Talk] 13:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Redirect to either Sith (species) or Old Sith Empire Lord Patrick 10:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Neutral/Comments

I thought it was rather clear that the "True Sith" are the remnants of the old Sith Empire. - Sikon [Talk] 09:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

  • However, how does the statement about the Sith existing for "tens of thousands of years" line up with all of the other literature on the Sith that dates their beginnings circa 6900 BBY? Not to mention this business about Adas being a Sith Lord circa 29,000 BBY. Looks to me like there's a major continuity problem in the EU. Jaywin 04:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
    • What statement about tens of thousands of years? Where? On Wookieepedia or in the game, where I don't remember there being one? - Sikon [Talk] 06:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • We have numerous reasons for a True Sith Empire of some sort being in existence from at the earliest 100,000 BBY and at the latest the Second Sith War/Jedi Civil War.

One, the Sith King Adas, 29,000 BBY. Two, a Sith library and temple on Krayiss II created 14,000 BBY Three, a Killik Sith Lord, from Gamer 9 prior to the Killiks being kicked rimward by the Celestials Four, Malachor V is mentioned as being tens of thousands of years old. Five, a Sith holocron that was reportedly to be 100,000 years old in the librarian-Jedi-whose-name-escapes-me possesion.

The True Sith have to be an entity that existed prior to Naga Sadow and his Sith Empire, one which had moved on and left the primitive peoples that became the Sith on Ziost behind. It has been theorised the True Sith were crushed by the Celestials, along with the Killiks, prior to 27,500 BBY.

There's ample evidence, really. —Unsigned comment by Sinrebirth (talk • contribs)

  • Who says the True Sith are the same Sith we know. Don't forget that the Sith were originally just a species that was conquered by the Dark Jedi. It could be them. Jasca Ducato 14:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
    • "True Sith" is strictly an Obsidian term, we don't know what it means, it is spoken once by Kreia, out of context, and whatever evidence exists for Sith predating the Sith Empire is irrelevant, as we don't know if these Sith were what was meant in KOTOR II. Basically, Obsidian threw in some soil for fans to build wild theories upon, and they happily do. We don't know anything about these "True Sith" besides that they reside in the Unknown Regions by KOTOR II's time, neither their age nor their roots, nor their relation to Adas, Krayiss II or anything else you outlined. As for Malachor V, duh, of course it's tens of thousands of years old, I'd say possibly tens of millions to billions of years. Except we don't know when the Sith colonized it. - Sikon [Talk] 15:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope, the True Sith are referred to repeatedly throughout KotOR II, and are clearly delineated as being a separate -- far older -- order of Sith than the Marka Ragnos group. They exist within the Unknown Regions in Revan's time...this is established within the dialogue. We also have the "100,000 years old" dating-fix given in the TotJ RPG sourcebook, along with the Adas and Krayiss II entries, which are archaeological in nature, and haven't yet been overruled in any way by Lucasfilm, and very likely stand as future retcons. Not to mention the Killik Sith Lord from SW Gamer.

As for the "tens of thousands of years old" dating-lock -- this refers to the Trayus Academy, not the geological age of the planet itself. It was built tens of thousands of years ago by the True Sith, which right there clearly points to a much more ancient race than the order established circa 6,900 BBY after the Hundred-Year Darkness. Orders of magnitude of difference.

As proof, here is dialogue taken from the end of the game, after the Exile's final battle with Kreia, which unequivocally sets up the True Sith as a separate Order:

Exile: And Bao-Dur -- and the droids?
Kreia: Their paths are unknown to me. Even the small one -- who waits for you outside this place -- I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the True Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.
Exile: And Revan? He came here, was here. What happened to him?
Kreia: It is because he remembered what lay buried here -- this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the True Sith wait for us, in the dark.
Exile: But we've fought the Sith.
Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way. He left the Ebon Hawk and its machine behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them.

...Among many other dialogue exchanges and in-game text (loading screens, etc.) which further define the True Sith as a major entity, and who certainly aren't intended by LFL and Obsidian to be a passing, ephemeral, trifling element in the canon. KotOR III itself is likely to deal with Revan and the True Sith, and they aren't something that were intended to be introduced and then subsequently forgotten about.

- The Bandsaw Vigilante

  • If KotOR III happens. And maybe even then this so-called mystery may not be solved. There may not even be a True Sith Empire; Revan and the Exile may have embarked upon a wild bantha chase - or perhaps they find something else out in the Unknown Regions. So far, we've only got the word of a Sith to base this on, and, as we know, they aren't to be trusted. Treachery is the way of the Sith - Kwenn 13:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I think it is too early to predict anything. Seriously, who could have predicted the K2 plot, out of all theories running on the rumor mill? If K3 is as loosely tied to previous games as K2, chances are we won't even encounter Revan or Exile, or see the Unknown Regions. Maybe just vague references throughout the game. So I wouldn't go predicting what's likely and what's not, and leave it to whoever is developing the sequel, if it's indeed in development. - Sikon [Talk] 14:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
      • I make this prediction: there will be no KOTOR III. 8) Having said that, though there's not much evidence confirming the existence of any "True Sith", and nothing which explains who they were, the idea, at least, seems to have existed in Revan and Kreia's mind. Kreia, I'm not sure we can trust, but Revan probably had some evidence.... —Silly Dan (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
        • All I can say at this point is...KotOR III *is* definitely under development, per an old school-chum of mine at LucasArts who's actually working on it (with Obsidian's people), and he's confirmed to me that the True Sith do indeed play a significant role in the storyline, at least as of this point in time. More than that I can't discuss (having done the "handshake-NDA" thing for this), but suffice to say much of what was mentioned in the second game will get paid off in a fairly major way in the third. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I find this "true Sith" thing hard to believe in. If they do exist and are so powerful, Revan and the Jedi exile will probably not defeat them and even Carth told to the Jedi Exile on Telos after the battle against Nihilus that he had the feeling that Revan did not succeed in doing what he left to do. If Revan and the Jedi Exile indeed failed fighting those Sith, then almost 4000 years later, the Emperor Palpatine should of been able to feel their presence, but he didn't. These Sith should of shown themselves since the Sith ruled the galaxy, but they didn't. Something should of happened during the era of the Galactic Empire but nothing did. I do not think these "true Sith" thing make sense at all.

  • Whay don't we just put a "conjecture" tag up there? Since this is a bit of a major plot point for KOTOR 2, I don't think it should be deleted.User :SithPower
    • Major plot point? Last time I checked, it wasn't a major plot point for K2. - Sikon [Talk] 18:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)