[2020-11-07 18:50:14] * Tommy-Macaroni set channel modes +q $~a
[2020-11-07 18:50:19] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 18:50:37] <Tommy-Macaroni> !hieveryone
[2020-11-07 18:50:38] <Nuku-Nuku> Tommy-Macaroni: Error: "hieveryone" is not a valid command.
[2020-11-07 18:50:48] <Tommy-Macaroni> Ugh, what is it?
[2020-11-07 18:51:01] <Toprawa> !hieverybody
[2020-11-07 18:51:01] <Nuku-Nuku> Hello, Ayrehead02, ChanServ, CorellianPremier, Culator, ecks, ecksbot, Erebus_Chronus, Imperators, Lewisr, MasterFred, miki, NanoLuuke, Nuku-Nuku, OOM-224, Shayanomer, spookly, Supreme_Emperor, Tommy-Macaroni, Toprawa, Winterz, and Zed42 !!!
[2020-11-07 18:51:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> Thanks :P
[2020-11-07 18:51:08] <Toprawa> If you watched Simpsons, you'd know that :P
[2020-11-07 18:51:18] <Ayrehead02> Hi Doctor Nick
[2020-11-07 18:51:21] <Toprawa> ^
[2020-11-07 18:51:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> Ooooooooh
[2020-11-07 18:51:30] <Tommy-Macaroni> I get that now :P
[2020-11-07 18:51:33] <Toprawa> XD
[2020-11-07 18:51:34] <Tommy-Macaroni> Aaaaaanyway
[2020-11-07 18:51:37] <Tommy-Macaroni> If you weren’t aware, I’m hosting tonight, so before we begin I wanted to go over ground rules for tonight.
[2020-11-07 18:51:57] <Tommy-Macaroni> Basically, for people new to the Mofference, it runs like a series of real-time CTs. As host, I will introduce each item on the agenda list and the person whose proposal it is will then present it. During this time, regular users will be muted, and admins are asked not be comment anything since we can’t mute you. Once the presentation is concluded, I will open the floor for a discussion.
[2020-11-07 18:52:07] <Tommy-Macaroni> Then, when I think the discussion has drawn to its natural conclusion, I will open the vote. We do this via bot, (it’s Nuku this time, so it’s a bit different from previous Mofferences)
[2020-11-07 18:52:07] <Tommy-Macaroni> It works like this:
[2020-11-07 18:52:21] <Tommy-Macaroni> "#startvote [proposal]? support, oppose"
[2020-11-07 18:52:33] <Tommy-Macaroni> You then either vote with "#vote support" or "#vote oppose"
[2020-11-07 18:52:40] <Tommy-Macaroni> "#endvote"
[2020-11-07 18:52:43] <Tommy-Macaroni> The bot will then tally the votes for each option.
[2020-11-07 18:52:50] <Tommy-Macaroni> Hopefully that's work
[2020-11-07 18:52:59] <Tommy-Macaroni> I'm sure we'll get the hang of it as we go along
[2020-11-07 18:53:04] <Tommy-Macaroni> Please note that there is no neural option. Just abstain if that applies to you.
[2020-11-07 18:53:04] <Toprawa> Just want to add that you need to use that specific command, or your vote will not be counted
[2020-11-07 18:53:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> When the vote is closed I will mute the channel again and we’ll go to the next proposal.
[2020-11-07 18:53:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> Now, some important stuff about the discussions. KEEP DISCUSSIONS ON TOPIC. These are always long meetings and we don’t want to be here longer than we have to, especially if you’ve been unlucky with the timezone roulette. If we admins think the discussion is heading in an off-topic direction, we will warn you, and if you continue, we will kick or even temporarily ban you from the channel, simply for the
[2020-11-07 18:53:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> sake of keeping things moving.
[2020-11-07 18:53:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> If something isn’t relevant, don’t say it.
[2020-11-07 18:53:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Chatter and general mucking around with roulettes and randoms can be directed to #wookieepedia-social or any of the Discord channels. Speaking of, the IRC relay channel has been temporarily made read-only, as outlined on [[WP:DISCORD]].
[2020-11-07 18:53:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Additionally, please be respectful of other people’s views this meeting. I also feel it’s worth mentioning that per [[WP:IRC]], politics should not be discussed, even if it’s a one-liner. Just in case anyone needed reminding.
[2020-11-07 18:53:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> If anyone has any specific questions about proceedings, don’t hesitate to PM me or any other admin.
[2020-11-07 18:53:48] <Tommy-Macaroni> It’s a good idea to have the Mofference page open, to know what proposal we’re on and to keep track of our progress - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Mofferences
[2020-11-07 18:53:49] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Mofferences | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 18:53:54] <Tommy-Macaroni> So, golden rules to rememberer: be nice, stay on topic, and admins be quiet during presentations.
[2020-11-07 18:54:04] <Tommy-Macaroni> Any other admin have anything else to add to that?
[2020-11-07 18:54:26] <Toprawa> Just reminding the admins that we can't mute you
[2020-11-07 18:54:29] <Toprawa> So don't talk over the presenter
[2020-11-07 18:54:51] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah
[2020-11-07 18:54:53] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK cool
[2020-11-07 18:55:25] <Toprawa> Thanks in advance to those who have shown up
[2020-11-07 18:55:28] <Toprawa> We appreciate it, as always
[2020-11-07 18:55:56] <Tommy-Macaroni> Okay, I think we’re ready. So, welcome, one and all, to our 33rd Mofference
[2020-11-07 18:56:04] <Tommy-Macaroni> First up is Tope with an amendment to Consensus policy. The floor is yours.
[2020-11-07 18:56:27] <Toprawa> Sorry, we had some miscommunication
[2020-11-07 18:56:34] <Toprawa> We're waiting until the top of the hour
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[2020-11-07 18:57:01] <Imperators> welcome, Boots
[2020-11-07 18:57:04] <Imperators> please take your seat
[2020-11-07 18:57:21] <Culator> Let's go ahead and
[2020-11-07 18:57:30] <Culator> #startmeeting Mofference 33
[2020-11-07 18:58:05] <Culator> Okay, annoying that there's no acknowledgement, but the log spam on my end says that worked.
[2020-11-07 18:58:08] <Toprawa> heh
[2020-11-07 18:58:11] <Toprawa> I was wondering :P
[2020-11-07 19:00:12] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, take two, from the top. First up is Tope with an amendment to Consensus policy. The floor is yours.
[2020-11-07 19:00:45] <Toprawa> Thank you
[2020-11-07 19:01:12] <Toprawa> I am proposing a modification to the Consensus policy's rules on infobox image votes
[2020-11-07 19:01:21] <Toprawa> Which can be found here https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Consensus#Infobox_image_consensus_votes
[2020-11-07 19:01:22] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Consensus | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:01:50] <Toprawa> Now that we've had the CT-only-vote for infobox images in place for a while, I believe it has highlighted a certain need for us
[2020-11-07 19:02:13] <Toprawa> Namely that these votes become simple majority votes, or plurality votes -- meaning they don't need to meet certain consensus ratios to pass
[2020-11-07 19:02:25] <Toprawa> These are the kinds of votes that should always have an outcome
[2020-11-07 19:02:40] <Toprawa> It doesn't do any good to not reach a decision because a consensus margin wasn't reached
[2020-11-07 19:02:58] <Toprawa> We've already eliminated the greater-than-or-equal-to requirement for these votes, for example, to make reaching consensus easier
[2020-11-07 19:03:20] <Toprawa> My proposal is as follows (and thanks again to Mr. Zev Senesca, Mofference Stalwart) https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Toprawa_and_Ralltiir/Zev_Senesca
[2020-11-07 19:03:21] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User talk:Toprawa and Ralltiir/Zev Senesca | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:03:56] <Toprawa> This is introducing a 6-month grace period for images that achieve consensus -- with the exception that a new image is released in source material
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[2020-11-07 19:03:58] * ChanServ set +o DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 19:04:09] <Toprawa> While also maintaining the policy's current version
[2020-11-07 19:04:22] <Toprawa> This grace period is designed to prevent endless votes
[2020-11-07 19:04:30] <Toprawa> Which is unlikely but never an impossibility when someone doesn't get their way
[2020-11-07 19:04:40] <Toprawa> The floor, Sir Thomas
[2020-11-07 19:04:42] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:04:49] <Tommy-Macaroni> It is open, my lord
[2020-11-07 19:04:57] <Supreme_Emperor> Logic at it's finest
[2020-11-07 19:05:02] <Ayrehead02> Makes perfect sense to me
[2020-11-07 19:05:03] <Imperators> sounds good to me
[2020-11-07 19:05:09] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah, I've already discussed this a bit with Tope, full support
[2020-11-07 19:05:13] <Winterz> looks good but one should be careful always to propose the best imagine available
[2020-11-07 19:05:16] <DarthRuiz30> Makes sense
[2020-11-07 19:05:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> Just refining the preexisting policy
[2020-11-07 19:05:20] <Winterz> whenever there's a vote
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[2020-11-07 19:05:23] * ChanServ set +v Fan26
[2020-11-07 19:05:26] * Tommy-Macaroni set -v Fan26
[2020-11-07 19:05:26] <MasterFred> Read this prior and makes perfect sense.
[2020-11-07 19:05:30] <Supreme_Emperor> Que applause
[2020-11-07 19:05:40] <Toprawa> Everyone is welcome to oppose any unideal images they don't like in such votes
[2020-11-07 19:05:45] <Toprawa> That's why we vote :P
[2020-11-07 19:06:00] <Winterz> lets vote then!
[2020-11-07 19:06:09] <Shayanomer> No objections from my side
[2020-11-07 19:06:25] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah, everyone seem to be in agreement here
[2020-11-07 19:06:37] <Supreme_Emperor> Vote now!
[2020-11-07 19:06:38] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, vote to update Wookieepedia:Consensus#Infobox image consensus votes:
[2020-11-07 19:06:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> Er
[2020-11-07 19:06:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> #startvote infobox images? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:06:58] <Nuku-Nuku> Only the meeting chair may start a vote.
[2020-11-07 19:07:02] <Tommy-Macaroni> :(
[2020-11-07 19:07:05] <Culator> Oh, great.
[2020-11-07 19:07:06] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:13] <Culator> #startvote infobox images? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:07:13] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: infobox images? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 19:07:13] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 19:07:17] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:18] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:19] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> Thanks
[2020-11-07 19:07:19] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:20] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:20] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:21] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:21] <Supreme_Emperor> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:22] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:23] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:23] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:24] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:25] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:27] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:31] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:07:33] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:09:02] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 19:09:03] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, I think we're done, Culator
[2020-11-07 19:09:08] <Tommy-Macaroni> Ah, sorry, thanks
[2020-11-07 19:09:14] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 19:09:14] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " infobox images?" Results are
[2020-11-07 19:09:14] <Nuku-Nuku> support (16): Ayrehead02, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, Supreme_Emperor, Winterz, CorellianPremier, Imperators, OOM-224, DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 19:09:35] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Consensus#Infobox image consensus votes passes 16-
[2020-11-07 19:09:35] <Tommy-Macaroni> 0
[2020-11-07 19:09:42] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:09:46] <Tommy-Macaroni> Next up, Tope has an amendment to the OOU Layout Guide. Floor’s all yours.
[2020-11-07 19:09:50] <Toprawa> Thank you
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[2020-11-07 19:09:59] <Toprawa> The OOU LG needs some clarification
[2020-11-07 19:10:31] <Toprawa> People, for some reason, have a big problem understanding how the Bibliography and External links sections work for real-world articles
[2020-11-07 19:10:58] <Toprawa> Since the implementation of WP:LG/OOU, these sections have always been designed to work the same as Appearances/Sources do for IU articles
[2020-11-07 19:11:12] <Toprawa> Which is to say that, with rare exception, no OOU article should ever be created without one
[2020-11-07 19:11:27] <Toprawa> Unfortunately, LG/OOU doesn't explain this really at all
[2020-11-07 19:11:35] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Layout_Guide/Out-of-universe#Bibliography
[2020-11-07 19:11:36] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:11:53] <Toprawa> This section is an unhelpful copy-paste of irrelevant content from the IU Layout Guide's Sources section
[2020-11-07 19:12:00] <Toprawa> Most of which doesn't apply
[2020-11-07 19:12:15] <Toprawa> So I am proposing we rework this section to explain what needs to be done
[2020-11-07 19:12:30] <Toprawa> A very simple explanation from here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Toprawa_and_Ralltiir/Zev_Senesca
[2020-11-07 19:12:31] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User talk:Toprawa and Ralltiir/Zev Senesca | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:12:50] <Toprawa> This section doesn't need to list every formatting nicety like the IU version does
[2020-11-07 19:12:52] <Toprawa> Hence the link
[2020-11-07 19:13:27] <Toprawa> This way, people should have no problem understanding the purpose and function of this section when {{Verify|oou=1}} gets slapped on their article creation
[2020-11-07 19:13:29] <Toprawa> The floor, Sir Thomas
[2020-11-07 19:13:32] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:13:38] <Tommy-Macaroni> Floor is open
[2020-11-07 19:13:46] <MasterFred> Much much better
[2020-11-07 19:13:51] <Erebus_Chronus> I agree
[2020-11-07 19:13:52] <Shayanomer> Thank God, we needed this for a long while now
[2020-11-07 19:13:56] <Tommy-Macaroni> And yes, fully support, very nice
[2020-11-07 19:13:59] <Ayrehead02> ^
[2020-11-07 19:14:00] <Zed42> Agreed, a much needed simplification
[2020-11-07 19:14:04] <NanoLuuke> Having being confronted to this in the past, you have my full support on this.
[2020-11-07 19:14:11] <Winterz> I support it
[2020-11-07 19:14:14] <Fan26> Yeah, this is good
[2020-11-07 19:14:16] <MasterFred> The current version was indeed copied and pasted simply to get the policy up to bring consistency to OOU articles asap. It's years overdue for a change.
[2020-11-07 19:14:22] <CorellianPremier> Indeed, that looks much smoother.
[2020-11-07 19:14:32] <Imperators> change "Sources" to "'Appearances' and/or 'Sources'"
[2020-11-07 19:14:33] <Winterz> though I wasn't aware Bibliography being obligatory
[2020-11-07 19:14:36] <Imperators> otherwise, looks good
[2020-11-07 19:14:36] ⇐ RattsT quit (~RattsT@76.165.142.43): Read error: Connection reset by peer
[2020-11-07 19:14:37] ⇐ Ratts_T quit (~RattsT@76.165.142.43): Read error: Connection reset by peer
[2020-11-07 19:14:47] <Winterz> will need to fix some of my own recent OOU creations
[2020-11-07 19:15:00] <Lewisr> I think one issue users have is that there is also a section in the layout guide for Filmography etc which seems to be what people believe is what the bibliography is
[2020-11-07 19:15:00] <Shayanomer> I am also a victim of the Verify
[2020-11-07 19:15:06] <Toprawa> Imperators, it's not meant to be Appearances/Sources
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[2020-11-07 19:15:28] <Erebus_Chronus> I have been working hard to get the Bibliographies filled out for the OOU articles lately
[2020-11-07 19:15:37] <Imperators> oh, I get it, Tope, it's referring to the WP:LG section
[2020-11-07 19:15:38] <Imperators> my bad
[2020-11-07 19:15:43] <Toprawa> No problem
[2020-11-07 19:15:50] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we all seem to be in agreement
[2020-11-07 19:15:55] <Tommy-Macaroni> Culator, if you please
[2020-11-07 19:16:00] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe#Bibliography
[2020-11-07 19:16:07] <Culator> #startvote Update OOU LG Bibliography section? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:16:07] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Update OOU LG Bibliography section? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 19:16:07] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 19:16:08] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:10] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:10] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:10] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:11] <Fan26> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:11] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:11] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:13] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:13] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:14] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:14] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:15] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:16] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:16] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:17] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:21] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:25] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:25] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:16:37] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 19:16:51] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 19:16:51] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Update OOU LG Bibliography section?" Results are
[2020-11-07 19:16:51] <Nuku-Nuku> support (18): CorellianPremier, Ayrehead02, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, OOM-224, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Fan26, Imperators, Winterz, DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 19:16:54] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:17:15] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe#Bibliography passes 18-0
[2020-11-07 19:17:24] * Tommy-Macaroni set +v RattsT
[2020-11-07 19:17:30] * Tommy-Macaroni set +v Ratts_T
[2020-11-07 19:17:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Not sure which one you're using
[2020-11-07 19:17:43] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, item number three is from Ratts, discussing approximate dates in infoboxes. All yours.
[2020-11-07 19:17:45] <Ratts_T> Thanks Tommy. Apologies for the late arrival, everyone.
[2020-11-07 19:18:26] <Ratts_T> So recently, there's been some issue over how to list approx. dates in status infoboxes.
[2020-11-07 19:19:27] <Ratts_T> The consensus among people appears to be to write a date as "c. 4 ABY," but sometimes you'll see users use the Circa template
[2020-11-07 19:19:46] <Ratts_T> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Circa
[2020-11-07 19:19:47] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Template:Circa | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:20:24] <Ratts_T> This template was created for use on year pages, where you can see it here
[2020-11-07 19:20:25] <Ratts_T> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/9_ABY
[2020-11-07 19:20:27] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: 9 ABY | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:20:55] <Ratts_T> When used in infoboxes though, it creates a very cluttered space for info
[2020-11-07 19:22:14] <Toprawa> (Let us know when you're done :P )
[2020-11-07 19:22:23] <Ratts_T> I propose a bullet point be added to the Infobox section of the LG, stating that apporximate dates shall only be denoted with the "c."
[2020-11-07 19:23:06] <Ratts_T> This is the consensus among many anyway, so it would just be codifying the rule
[2020-11-07 19:23:12] <Ratts_T> That's all from me
[2020-11-07 19:23:15] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:23:23] <Toprawa> Sorry, Ratts -- wasn't sure if you were finished or not
[2020-11-07 19:23:27] <Toprawa> There was a long pause there
[2020-11-07 19:23:30] <Ratts_T> No problem
[2020-11-07 19:23:43] <Toprawa> As Ratts has correctly noted, {{Circa}} was never designed to be used in infoboxes. That was specifically created for BBY/ABY date articles.
[2020-11-07 19:23:55] <Toprawa> And real estate in infobox fields is limited
[2020-11-07 19:23:57] <Toprawa> So this is good
[2020-11-07 19:24:03] <MasterFred> Agreed
[2020-11-07 19:24:16] <Winterz> it's very good.
[2020-11-07 19:24:20] <Lewisr> Might be worth adding that onto the circa template page
[2020-11-07 19:24:21] <MasterFred> Seems simple enough. Also, using "c." is fancy. I like fancy. :P
[2020-11-07 19:24:22] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah, sounds good to me
[2020-11-07 19:24:32] <Tommy-Macaroni> Nice to codify this
[2020-11-07 19:24:34] <Fan26> Is it really necessary to codify this though? If it's essentially just been general practice that some people ignored?
[2020-11-07 19:24:40] <Fan26> I'm not opposed to it
[2020-11-07 19:24:41] <CorellianPremier> Yes, it would look better
[2020-11-07 19:24:47] <Erebus_Chronus> Yes, the Circa template has always felt rather out of place in infoboxes, and should just remain for date articles
[2020-11-07 19:24:47] <Toprawa> It's necessary to codify to point to people when they are unclear or disagree
[2020-11-07 19:24:48] <DarthRuiz30> Yeah, I would also add it to the template instructions
[2020-11-07 19:24:56] <MasterFred> When possible, codify everything.
[2020-11-07 19:24:59] <Ratts_T> I twas topic of debate on a recent status article
[2020-11-07 19:24:59] <Toprawa> Standardization and clarification, in other words
[2020-11-07 19:25:13] <Fan26> If it gives something to point to in disputes, I guess it's fine then
[2020-11-07 19:25:23] <Erebus_Chronus> Great work Ratts
[2020-11-07 19:25:33] <Shayanomer> Good job Ratts, nice to finally resolve this
[2020-11-07 19:25:45] <NanoLuuke> It's not really something I'm concerned with, but if it help you guys, then sure, support
[2020-11-07 19:26:03] <Ayrehead02> Yeah this is something that's needed codifying for a while
[2020-11-07 19:26:25] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, great, I think we're ready to vote
[2020-11-07 19:26:29] <Tommy-Macaroni> Culator, if you wouldn't mind
[2020-11-07 19:26:33] <Culator> #startvote Add c. rule to LG? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:26:33] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Add c. rule to LG? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 19:26:33] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 19:26:33] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide#Infobox with info on use of c.
[2020-11-07 19:26:38] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:39] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:40] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:40] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:40] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:40] <Fan26> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:41] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:41] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:43] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:44] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:45] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:45] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:45] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:45] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:47] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:51] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:52] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:26:52] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:27:07] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 19:27:20] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 19:27:20] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Add c. rule to LG?" Results are
[2020-11-07 19:27:21] <Nuku-Nuku> support (18): OOM-224, Shayanomer, Ayrehead02, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Zed42, Tommy-Macaroni, miki, Toprawa, Lewisr, DarthRuiz30, Culator, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Fan26, Imperators, Winterz, CorellianPremier
[2020-11-07 19:27:31] * Channel mode set to +mi by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:27:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Uh
[2020-11-07 19:27:45] <Tommy-Macaroni> Not sure what I did there XD
[2020-11-07 19:27:58] * Channel mode set to -i by Culator
[2020-11-07 19:28:01] ⇐ OOM-224 quit (b0fbc5aa@176.251.197.170): Remote host closed the connection
[2020-11-07 19:28:05] <Culator> You made it invite-only.
[2020-11-07 19:28:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> Oops. Thank you :P
[2020-11-07 19:28:22] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide#Infobox with info on use of c. passes 18-0
[2020-11-07 19:28:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> We have another item from Ratts, this time about artificial white spacing. Go go go.
[2020-11-07 19:28:58] <Ratts_T> Thanks again, Tommy. So as some of you may know, we've had a bit of an issue with one user recently adding the Clear template to several articles.
[2020-11-07 19:29:08] <Ratts_T> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Clear
[2020-11-07 19:29:09] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Template:Clear | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:29:39] <Ratts_T> This simply creates a large white space on the page, leaving a good portion of the screen empty of content.
[2020-11-07 19:30:12] <Ratts_T> While this has been an isolated incident with one user, there's no reason for this practice to be done anyway.
[2020-11-07 19:30:54] <Ratts_T> I'm proposing that we stipulate within the MoS that "no artificial white spaces are to be added to mainspace articles."
[2020-11-07 19:31:19] <Ratts_T> That's about it, really.
[2020-11-07 19:31:23] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:31:29] <Tommy-Macaroni> Floor is open, thanks Ratts
[2020-11-07 19:31:34] * Tommy-Macaroni set -v Ratts_T
[2020-11-07 19:31:34] * Tommy-Macaroni set -v RattsT
[2020-11-07 19:31:34] <Toprawa> This was also something of an issue several years back where a user tried shoehorning images into too-tight spaces in articles, which never looks good
[2020-11-07 19:31:43] <Toprawa> As long as that template exists, it's a potential problem
[2020-11-07 19:31:50] <Toprawa> The template was created for infobox building
[2020-11-07 19:31:52] <Toprawa> Not articles
[2020-11-07 19:32:09] <Shayanomer> Clarification on what Clear does, it only creates a whitespace if the text is next to an element
[2020-11-07 19:32:11] <MasterFred> Yeah, It's definitely also been an issue in the past, even if distant.
[2020-11-07 19:32:15] <Lewisr> I understand Chris' idea to a degree, but there is surely a better alternative
[2020-11-07 19:32:17] <DarthRuiz30> I agree, it creates unnecessary blank space. If you're in need of doing that, the article shouldn't be hosting that many images or images at all until an expansion
[2020-11-07 19:32:19] <NanoLuuke> Tope answering my question before I ask them, nice ^^
[2020-11-07 19:32:26] <Toprawa> That's why I'm here :P
[2020-11-07 19:32:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> Sounds good to me
[2020-11-07 19:32:33] <Lewisr> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Weequay is the worst example I've seen of it being applied
[2020-11-07 19:32:34] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Weequay | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:32:38] <Erebus_Chronus> Thank God this has been codified
[2020-11-07 19:32:46] <Ayrehead02> Given recent events it's definitely good to have this in writing
[2020-11-07 19:32:50] <Zed42> Yeah, that template has its uses but mainspace pages are not one of them
[2020-11-07 19:33:14] <Lewisr> Size of the infobox doesn't help but doesn't need that massive whitespace
[2020-11-07 19:33:15] <Tommy-Macaroni> Where in the MOS would this be going?
[2020-11-07 19:33:18] <NanoLuuke> Ok, thanks for the example, I hate it ^^
[2020-11-07 19:33:27] <Erebus_Chronus> I've only ever used this on navboxes because it felt like a formality
[2020-11-07 19:33:38] <Ratts_T> I'll admit I hadn't checked Tommy
[2020-11-07 19:34:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we'll sort it out when we implement it
[2020-11-07 19:34:31] <Toprawa> Can we also add this:
[2020-11-07 19:34:35] <Ratts_T> I'd say the headings section, as that was Chris' main idea behind it
[2020-11-07 19:34:41] <Toprawa> That it may need to go into the LGs too
[2020-11-07 19:34:51] <Toprawa> It doesn't hurt to list this in both places
[2020-11-07 19:35:00] <Ayrehead02> I think that'd make sense
[2020-11-07 19:35:09] <Ratts_T> Yeah Tope I agree
[2020-11-07 19:35:13] <Erebus_Chronus> As do I
[2020-11-07 19:35:18] <Tommy-Macaroni> Sounds good
[2020-11-07 19:35:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, let's vote
[2020-11-07 19:35:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> Culator, I need you plz
[2020-11-07 19:35:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Manual of Style and Wookieepedia:Layout Guide with info on {{Clear}}:
[2020-11-07 19:36:10] <Tommy-Macaroni> and LG/OOU
[2020-11-07 19:36:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> Sorry
[2020-11-07 19:36:32] <Culator> #startvote Add clear rule to LG and MOS? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:36:32] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Add clear rule to LG and MOS? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 19:36:32] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 19:36:35] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:36] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:36] <Fan26> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:36] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:37] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:37] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:37] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:38] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:38] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:40] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:40] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:41] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:42] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:43] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:51] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:36:54] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:37:07] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 19:37:24] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 19:37:24] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Add clear rule to LG and MOS?" Results are
[2020-11-07 19:37:24] <Nuku-Nuku> support (16): Ayrehead02, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, DarthRuiz30, Culator, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Fan26, Imperators, CorellianPremier
[2020-11-07 19:37:31] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:37:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Manual of Style, Wookieepedia:Layout Guide, and Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe with info on {{Clear}} passes 16-0
[2020-11-07 19:37:47] <Tommy-Macaroni> Next up, me. {{Eras}} V.2.
[2020-11-07 19:38:01] <Tommy-Macaroni> So you may remember last Mofference, I presented a rewrite to the Layout Guide’s Eras template section. Today, I’m proposing a rewrite of the OOU Layout Guide’s Eras section.
[2020-11-07 19:38:35] <Tommy-Macaroni> I suggest we remove the Title tag and Eras tag sections of https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Layout_Guide/Out-of-universe
[2020-11-07 19:38:35] <Tommy-Macaroni> And replace them with this: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User:Tommy-Macaroni/Other
[2020-11-07 19:38:36] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:38:37] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User:Tommy-Macaroni/Other | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:38:57] <Tommy-Macaroni> The current Eras policy is rather vague, ultimately passing off providing additional information onto Template:Eras itself. The Title tag section also says to use {{Title}}, which has been depreciated in favour of title= in {{Eras}} for some time.
[2020-11-07 19:39:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> The new version fully explains and lists all possible parameters relevant to an OOU article, and explains when to use them and which order they should be in. As previously said, this matched the recent rewrite of the IU Layout Guide’s Eras section.
[2020-11-07 19:39:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> That’s all, I open the floor.
[2020-11-07 19:39:16] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:39:45] <Toprawa> ~support
[2020-11-07 19:39:50] <MasterFred> Read this just before the meeting and it's very concise. Shouldn't be much confusion
[2020-11-07 19:39:54] <Imperators> dew it
[2020-11-07 19:40:04] <Zed42> Nice work
[2020-11-07 19:40:10] <miki> "part of the in-universe title" should this be changed, as this is for OOU articles?
[2020-11-07 19:40:15] <miki> (point 6)
[2020-11-07 19:40:21] <Ayrehead02> Assuming that the many Stary Destroyer lists aren't part of it this looks great :P
[2020-11-07 19:40:21] <Tommy-Macaroni> Ah yes, good spot
[2020-11-07 19:40:24] <Tommy-Macaroni> Thanks
[2020-11-07 19:40:25] <Tommy-Macaroni> Heheh
[2020-11-07 19:40:30] <Shayanomer> Good work Tommy, another thing that we needed for a while
[2020-11-07 19:40:55] <Erebus_Chronus> It makes perfect sense to me, and I firmly agree that it's far more concise than the current one we have
[2020-11-07 19:40:56] <miki> also point 7, OOU articles shouldn't have any BTS sections
[2020-11-07 19:41:08] <Toprawa> miki is paying attention today :P
[2020-11-07 19:41:16] <Toprawa> We should all take a lesson :P
[2020-11-07 19:41:26] <CorellianPremier> Perfect
[2020-11-07 19:41:38] <Tommy-Macaroni> Uh, yeah, notoc was tricky for OOU
[2020-11-07 19:41:41] <NanoLuuke> Took a quick look, it look fine to me
[2020-11-07 19:41:46] <Ratts_T> Yep, this looks great
[2020-11-07 19:41:55] <Tommy-Macaroni> I suppose we should only use it when there's only one prose section then?
[2020-11-07 19:42:09] <MasterFred> Yeah, just don't clarify Bts
[2020-11-07 19:43:09] <Erebus_Chronus> Let's put it to a vote then
[2020-11-07 19:43:28] <Tommy-Macaroni> I'm just doing a quick edit for the BTS thing
[2020-11-07 19:43:29] <Tommy-Macaroni> One second
[2020-11-07 19:43:40] <Toprawa> "Talk amongst yourselves."
[2020-11-07 19:43:57] → OOM-224 joined (b0fbc5aa@176.251.197.170)
[2020-11-07 19:44:00] <Toprawa> Because not everyone will get that https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/69093232/talk-amongst-yourselves.jpg
[2020-11-07 19:44:08] <Tommy-Macaroni> Table of contents. Use "notoc=1" in Eras to remove an unwanted table of contents. The table of contents should only be removed if an article has one prose section (eg "Synopsis" or "Reception"). This means articles that have a single content section, such as "Synopsis" or "Reception," should remove their table of contents, whereas articles which have multiple prose sections should remove their table of
[2020-11-07 19:44:08] <Tommy-Macaroni> contents.
[2020-11-07 19:44:11] <Tommy-Macaroni> How's that?
[2020-11-07 19:44:26] <Erebus_Chronus> A lot better
[2020-11-07 19:44:40] <MasterFred> Correction
[2020-11-07 19:44:43] <MasterFred> at the end
[2020-11-07 19:45:05] <MasterFred> "whereas articles that have multiple prose sections should NOT remove their table of contents."
[2020-11-07 19:45:15] <Tommy-Macaroni> Ah, yeah, thanks
[2020-11-07 19:45:25] <Toprawa> Also, use THAT not WHICH in that sentence
[2020-11-07 19:45:28] <MasterFred> Also switching "which" for "that" per grammar
[2020-11-07 19:45:30] <MasterFred> exactly :P
[2020-11-07 19:45:31] <Toprawa> bc gramr
[2020-11-07 19:45:35] <Erebus_Chronus> Yeah, it looks like you're saying no table of contents for any of them
[2020-11-07 19:45:35] ⇐ Ratts_T quit (~RattsT@76.165.142.43): Read error: Connection reset by peer
[2020-11-07 19:45:35] ⇐ RattsT quit (~RattsT@76.165.142.43): Read error: Connection reset by peer
[2020-11-07 19:45:49] <Winterz> wait, is this a new proposal or still the same?
[2020-11-07 19:46:06] <MasterFred> Same proposal
[2020-11-07 19:46:09] → Ratts_T joined (~RattsT@76.165.142.43)
[2020-11-07 19:46:09] → RattsT joined (~RattsT@76.165.142.43)
[2020-11-07 19:46:10] <NanoLuuke> We're still on era
[2020-11-07 19:46:11] <MasterFred> Just a minor amendment
[2020-11-07 19:46:14] <Tommy-Macaroni> The same, just a minor modification to the end
[2020-11-07 19:46:29] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, grammar edit saved, we all happy?
[2020-11-07 19:46:30] <Winterz> there are some articles with many sections but light on content
[2020-11-07 19:46:48] <Erebus_Chronus> I am happy with it
[2020-11-07 19:46:58] <MasterFred> I'm happy
[2020-11-07 19:47:07] <Imperators> dew it
[2020-11-07 19:47:08] <MasterFred> Winterz: This is common among OOU CANs
[2020-11-07 19:47:47] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, let’s go. Culator, if you please.
[2020-11-07 19:47:51] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe with an updated Eras section
[2020-11-07 19:48:06] <Culator> #startvote Replace title and eras sections of OOU LG with Tommy's thing? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 19:48:06] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Replace title and eras sections of OOU LG with Tommy's thing? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 19:48:06] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 19:48:08] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:09] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:09] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:09] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:10] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:11] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:11] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:12] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:13] <Fan26> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:14] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:14] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:14] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:14] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:15] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:16] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:18] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:24] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 19:48:35] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 19:48:49] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 19:48:49] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Replace title and eras sections of OOU LG with Tommy's thing?" Results are
[2020-11-07 19:48:49] <Nuku-Nuku> support (17): Shayanomer, Ayrehead02, DarthRuiz30, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Fan26, Imperators, Winterz, CorellianPremier
[2020-11-07 19:48:50] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:49:04] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe with an updated Eras section passes 17-0
[2020-11-07 19:49:07] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we now have Ayre on notability policy on film re-release editions. Floor is yours.
[2020-11-07 19:49:17] <Ayrehead02> Thanks Tommy
[2020-11-07 19:49:41] <Ayrehead02> This shouldn't be anything too controversial, but recently came up in a status article nomination
[2020-11-07 19:50:15] <Ayrehead02> We don't currently have any guidance on when an article should or shouldn't be made per film re-releases
[2020-11-07 19:50:44] <Ayrehead02> And since it's a fairly niche area there isn't a huge amount of precedent
[2020-11-07 19:51:24] <Ayrehead02> So I'm proposing we add this to the Real-world articles section of the notability policy
[2020-11-07 19:51:26] <Ayrehead02> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ayrehead02/Policy
[2020-11-07 19:51:27] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User:Ayrehead02/Policy | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:52:08] <Ayrehead02> Having articles for big multi release packs like this
[2020-11-07 19:52:08] <Ayrehead02> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Skywalker_Saga
[2020-11-07 19:52:09] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 19:52:34] <Ayrehead02> Is useful for referencing featurettes, especially when the featurette isn't clearly associated with any individual film
[2020-11-07 19:53:03] <Toprawa> Is the intention here to mean "new �behind-the-scenes� content"?
[2020-11-07 19:53:11] <Toprawa> Because I think that might be worth clarifying
[2020-11-07 19:53:55] <Tommy-Macaroni> Are you done, Ayre?
[2020-11-07 19:53:58] <Toprawa> Oh, sorry
[2020-11-07 19:53:58] <Ayrehead02> It will certainly almost always be BTS content, but in the case that there was new non-bts content that would definitely merit an article
[2020-11-07 19:54:01] <Toprawa> I thought he was done
[2020-11-07 19:54:28] <Ayrehead02> Pretty much, happy to open up to discussion now
[2020-11-07 19:54:30] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 19:54:38] <Tommy-Macaroni> Thanks, floor is open
[2020-11-07 19:54:38] <Culator> MACLUNKEY!
[2020-11-07 19:54:41] <Toprawa> Can you give an example of new non-BTS content?
[2020-11-07 19:54:44] <Toprawa> I'm kind of unclear on this one
[2020-11-07 19:54:49] <Ayrehead02> Per Fred :P
[2020-11-07 19:54:56] <Ayrehead02> Oh shit Culator even
[2020-11-07 19:55:01] <Ayrehead02> No idea how I misread that
[2020-11-07 19:55:07] <Culator> XD
[2020-11-07 19:55:12] <Ratts_T> I assume that would be SE style changes, yeah?
[2020-11-07 19:55:32] <Ratts_T> Like adding Boba to ANH
[2020-11-07 19:55:38] <NanoLuuke> You mean movie modification, is that it?
[2020-11-07 19:55:54] <Ratts_T> That's what I take non-BTS content to mean
[2020-11-07 19:56:10] <Ayrehead02> Yes, although I'm happy to just have this cover BTS and those be covered somewhere else in policy separately if people prefer
[2020-11-07 19:56:21] <Toprawa> I'm not totally sure what is best myself
[2020-11-07 19:56:26] <Comm_Boots> Isn't the newest release always considered as having precedent over older ones? Thus something like that would be included and mentioned in the BTS section?
[2020-11-07 19:56:27] <Toprawa> I don't necessarily have a preference
[2020-11-07 19:56:31] <Toprawa> Just wondering what was the original intention
[2020-11-07 19:56:58] <Ayrehead02> For example, if The Skywalker Saga set had contained new movie alterations unique to it, but no new bts info, I'd say it would still get an article
[2020-11-07 19:57:10] <Toprawa> If that's what we want to do, that's fine
[2020-11-07 19:57:27] <Toprawa> Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but they never release the films with new changes in them unless they're part of a bundle
[2020-11-07 19:57:39] <Toprawa> The 2004 DVDs and 2011 Blu-rays, for example
[2020-11-07 19:57:57] <Ratts_T> Did TPM 3D have unique changes?
[2020-11-07 19:58:11] <MasterFred> Don't believe so
[2020-11-07 19:58:12] <Toprawa> Was that released on home video?
[2020-11-07 19:58:16] <MasterFred> Neither did ROTS 3D
[2020-11-07 19:58:29] <Ratts_T> Ah yeah I guess only theatrical
[2020-11-07 19:58:45] <Ayrehead02> Those would be individual film re-releases anyway
[2020-11-07 19:59:10] <MasterFred> Ok, I think we've narrowed it down.
[2020-11-07 19:59:19] <MasterFred> I'm good with this interpretation.
[2020-11-07 19:59:29] <Toprawa> Ok, can we make one minor wording modification:
[2020-11-07 19:59:56] <Toprawa> "...if the product contains multiple films and new content, such as content changes or behind-the-scenes features."
[2020-11-07 20:00:00] <Toprawa> That way it's defined
[2020-11-07 20:00:31] <Tommy-Macaroni> Sounds good to me
[2020-11-07 20:00:52] <Erebus_Chronus> I have no objections
[2020-11-07 20:00:54] <Ayrehead02> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ayrehead02/Policy
[2020-11-07 20:00:55] <Ayrehead02> Done
[2020-11-07 20:00:56] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User:Ayrehead02/Policy | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:01:08] <Toprawa> Cool
[2020-11-07 20:01:14] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we all happy with that change?
[2020-11-07 20:01:19] <Erebus_Chronus> Yep
[2020-11-07 20:01:20] <Toprawa> Let's rock
[2020-11-07 20:01:21] <MasterFred> def
[2020-11-07 20:01:24] <Ayrehead02> Excellent
[2020-11-07 20:01:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, vote time. Ping Culator
[2020-11-07 20:01:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Notability policy#Real-world articles with info on film re-releases
[2020-11-07 20:01:49] <Toprawa> Wait
[2020-11-07 20:01:52] <Toprawa> Sorry
[2020-11-07 20:01:55] <Toprawa> One last question
[2020-11-07 20:01:58] <Ayrehead02> Go for it
[2020-11-07 20:01:58] <Toprawa> Sorry
[2020-11-07 20:02:17] <Toprawa> Is this meaning "if the product contains multiple films AND new content or "multiple films OR new content"?
[2020-11-07 20:02:22] <Toprawa> Because right now it has to include both
[2020-11-07 20:02:27] <Toprawa> With the current wording
[2020-11-07 20:02:29] <Ayrehead02> That's the intention
[2020-11-07 20:02:31] <Toprawa> Ok
[2020-11-07 20:02:34] <Toprawa> Just checking
[2020-11-07 20:03:07] <Toprawa> Go now :P
[2020-11-07 20:03:17] <Culator> #startvote Add film re-release section to notability policy? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 20:03:17] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Add film re-release section to notability policy? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 20:03:18] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 20:03:20] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:20] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Notability policy#Real-world articles with info on film re-releases
[2020-11-07 20:03:21] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:21] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:22] <Fan26> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:23] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:23] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:23] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:25] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:25] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:26] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:26] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:28] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:29] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:29] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:29] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:32] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:34] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:43] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 20:03:48] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:03:58] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 20:03:58] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Add film re-release section to notability policy?" Results are
[2020-11-07 20:03:58] <Nuku-Nuku> support (18): Shayanomer, Ayrehead02, DarthRuiz30, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Fan26, Imperators, Winterz, OOM-224, CorellianPremier
[2020-11-07 20:04:05] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:04:06] ⇐ Fan26 quit (49ab13d8@wookieepedia/Fan26): Remote host closed the connection
[2020-11-07 20:04:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Notability policy#Real-world articles with info on film re-releases passes 18-0
[2020-11-07 20:04:21] <Tommy-Macaroni> Now, Tope commencing his three-punch knock-out with infoboxes. Floor’s all yours.
[2020-11-07 20:04:26] <Toprawa> Thank you
[2020-11-07 20:04:33] <Toprawa> We have a certain problem with infoboxes
[2020-11-07 20:05:05] <Toprawa> Some infobox templates include a "members" field or something like it that unfortunately has proven that it gets abused because people don't know where to draw the line
[2020-11-07 20:05:16] <Toprawa> To show you several examples of where and how this gets abused:
[2020-11-07 20:05:20] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth/Legends
[2020-11-07 20:05:21] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Darth | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:05:23] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hutt/Legends
[2020-11-07 20:05:26] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Twi%27lek
[2020-11-07 20:05:26] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Hutt | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:05:27] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Twi'lek | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:05:29] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari
[2020-11-07 20:05:30] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Mon Calamari | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:05:32] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance_Starfighter_Corps
[2020-11-07 20:05:34] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Resistance Starfighter Corps | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:05:45] <Toprawa> Lewis and I have many times reverted people who think this field is designed to list every single member of a subject
[2020-11-07 20:05:47] <Toprawa> Which is silly
[2020-11-07 20:06:12] <Toprawa> The vertical length in infoboxes is always a concern, especially with the narrower margins of Wikia skin
[2020-11-07 20:06:34] <Toprawa> The idea to propose some kind of limit has been floated, like only list 10 members, for example
[2020-11-07 20:06:51] <Toprawa> But the problem with that is there is no good way to do it
[2020-11-07 20:07:00] <Toprawa> Whatever 10 we might choose would be totally subjective
[2020-11-07 20:07:08] <Toprawa> And those examples may become obsolete over time
[2020-11-07 20:07:14] <Toprawa> And then we potentially get into a recency bias
[2020-11-07 20:07:32] <Toprawa> For example: Are subjects from 2025 more "notable" than 2015 subjects? etc.
[2020-11-07 20:07:45] <Toprawa> Then we're looking at infoboxes potentially from an OOU perspective than an IU perspective
[2020-11-07 20:08:04] <Toprawa> The whole thing becomes a mess, and then we end up having debates over something this petty, which is just a waste of everyone's time
[2020-11-07 20:08:18] <Toprawa> The simplest solution is just to remove these fields from infoboxes
[2020-11-07 20:08:33] <Toprawa> They are abused and are redundant to categories
[2020-11-07 20:09:05] <Toprawa> I am therefore proposing the following clause be added to the Infobox sections of the WP:LG and WP:LG/OOU
[2020-11-07 20:09:19] <Toprawa> Infoboxes may not contain any field listing individual examples of an article subject, such as members of a species or organization.
[2020-11-07 20:09:40] <Toprawa> This also prevents the addition of any such field in any future infobox template creation
[2020-11-07 20:09:58] <Toprawa> "Infoboxes may not contain any field listing individual examples of an article subject, such as members of a species or organization." is that proposal, to clarify
[2020-11-07 20:10:08] <Toprawa> The floor, Sir Thomas
[2020-11-07 20:10:09] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:10:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> !support
[2020-11-07 20:10:13] <Nuku-Nuku> Tommy-Macaroni: Error: "support" is not a valid command.
[2020-11-07 20:10:17] <DarthRuiz30> 100% agree with it
[2020-11-07 20:10:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> shush
[2020-11-07 20:10:22] <Shayanomer> This one's big
[2020-11-07 20:10:25] <Ayrehead02> Having discussed this previously with Tope I think it's the right move
[2020-11-07 20:10:25] <Lewisr> You know its too many when you have to use a scroll box
[2020-11-07 20:10:26] <Winterz> I think the problem is with those abusing it Tope
[2020-11-07 20:10:32] <Comm_Boots> We're still keeping the Affiliations section, right?
[2020-11-07 20:10:38] <OOM-224> It's unfortunate that it has come to this, but a solution is much needed, and this is the best way to go
[2020-11-07 20:10:41] <Toprawa> Affiliations is not part of this proposal
[2020-11-07 20:10:44] <Winterz> there are other parameters in the infobox that might fit the same pattern like sub-groups
[2020-11-07 20:10:47] <Ayrehead02> Although I wonder if this is worth extending to the owners field for devices and holders field for titles
[2020-11-07 20:10:58] <Ayrehead02> I mean if we include every Captain it's the same issue
[2020-11-07 20:10:59] <Toprawa> We can potentially expand it, but I'd like to just focus on this for this vote
[2020-11-07 20:11:00] <Imperators> I was about to propose that instead of just removing the field outright, a link to the category would be added. However, I realized that there would be a problem with the current Canon/Legends category system.
[2020-11-07 20:11:07] <Ayrehead02> Ok, works for me
[2020-11-07 20:11:11] <Shayanomer> The only downside is that readers have to move to the category page to learn about individual members now
[2020-11-07 20:11:19] <NanoLuuke> Ok, I'm going a bit offroad here, but I'm having the same concern regarding "Other works of note", or even "voice acting in" and "Star Wars box" from person OOU infobox
[2020-11-07 20:11:29] <MasterFred> This is fantastic. A great first step. We can expand later, but this lays the groundwork.
[2020-11-07 20:11:35] <Lewisr> Agree Ayre, types of lightsabers for example can be overkilled
[2020-11-07 20:11:41] <Winterz> sub-groups sometimes is also dependable on notables in order to not "overcrowd" it
[2020-11-07 20:11:43] <Toprawa> To reiterate: If you guys want to expand this to other templates, feel free. I would just like to focus on this proposal for now.
[2020-11-07 20:11:44] <Erebus_Chronus> As always, Tope, your proposal is very clear and concise. But yes, having a "members" parameter for the species infobox template doesn't seem necessary because then we'd have to list EVERY member of that species
[2020-11-07 20:11:52] <DarthRuiz30> Right now there's no need to have a concern on that Nano, the vote is for just those specific fields
[2020-11-07 20:12:01] <Zed42> As others said, this is a good starting point
[2020-11-07 20:12:08] <Ratts_T> I understand that this is good for larger articles, but smaller pages will seem to suffer from it
[2020-11-07 20:12:09] <Comm_Boots> Fair enough, I'd support this measure.
[2020-11-07 20:12:31] <Toprawa> I think any "suffering" is minor at best (or worst)
[2020-11-07 20:12:37] <Ayrehead02> Smaller pages should pretty clearly mention all members in the article body anyway
[2020-11-07 20:12:40] <Toprawa> We should be consistent in how we apply this
[2020-11-07 20:12:49] <Ratts_T> Fair enough
[2020-11-07 20:12:54] <NanoLuuke> Ok, as other noted, this is good groundwork for further expansion, so yeah, support
[2020-11-07 20:13:03] <Winterz> wait, but this applies to group infoboxes too?
[2020-11-07 20:13:09] <Erebus_Chronus> Which is also seems to be why we've removed the list of members from https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Order and https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith
[2020-11-07 20:13:09] <Toprawa> Yes
[2020-11-07 20:13:11] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Jedi Order | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:13:12] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Sith | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:13:20] <Toprawa> "Infoboxes may not contain any field listing individual examples of an article subject, such as members of a species or organization.
[2020-11-07 20:13:20] <Toprawa> "
[2020-11-07 20:13:27] <OOM-224> I think an exception could be made for articles with members less than 5 or 6
[2020-11-07 20:13:31] <Lewisr> Yeah because how do you determine who is notable and not
[2020-11-07 20:13:51] <Lewisr> As Tope said it is subjective
[2020-11-07 20:13:51] <Toprawa> As I've explained, OOM, any such limit would be totally subjective and potentially unfairly implemented
[2020-11-07 20:13:54] <Erebus_Chronus> So, I 100% support this proposal
[2020-11-07 20:13:54] <Tommy-Macaroni> OOM, your point has been addressed already
[2020-11-07 20:13:56] <DarthRuiz30> I don't think an exception is necessary
[2020-11-07 20:14:09] <Toprawa> Ultimately, it's a petty thing to have to worry about and debate over
[2020-11-07 20:14:11] <Winterz> but how would this apply to subunits like in the Resistance Starfighter Corps case?
[2020-11-07 20:14:21] <Toprawa> It doesn't, Winterz
[2020-11-07 20:14:23] <Shayanomer> Other than navigation taking a hit, I support
[2020-11-07 20:14:24] <Imperators> yeah, no, like I said, I'd like to see either a link to the category (which is inconvenient) or no members at all instead of a subjective selection
[2020-11-07 20:14:25] <Toprawa> Subunits are not members
[2020-11-07 20:14:49] <Winterz> but they mighty get crowded too
[2020-11-07 20:14:52] <Winterz> might*
[2020-11-07 20:15:01] <Ayrehead02> Something for future discussion then
[2020-11-07 20:15:02] <Lewisr> That's a worry for another time
[2020-11-07 20:15:03] <Erebus_Chronus> Subunits belong in the subunits parameter of the military unit template
[2020-11-07 20:15:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> We can address that later, this is getting off topic
[2020-11-07 20:15:13] <Winterz> ok
[2020-11-07 20:15:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we all seem to support this. Culator, shall we?
[2020-11-07 20:15:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide#Infobox and Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe#Infobox with info forbidding having a "members" etc field in infoboxes:
[2020-11-07 20:15:48] <Culator> #startvote Update LG to forbid members in infoboxes? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 20:15:49] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Update LG to forbid members in infoboxes? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 20:15:49] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 20:15:51] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:51] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:51] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:51] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:51] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:52] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:52] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:52] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:52] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:53] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:53] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:54] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:55] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:56] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:57] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:15:58] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:16:26] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 20:16:46] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 20:16:46] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Update LG to forbid members in infoboxes?" Results are
[2020-11-07 20:16:46] <Nuku-Nuku> support (16): CorellianPremier, OOM-224, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, Ayrehead02, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Imperators, DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 20:16:48] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:16:57] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Layout Guide#Infobox and Wookieepedia:Layout Guide/Out-of-universe#Infobox with info forbidding having a "members" etc field in infoboxes passes 16-0
[2020-11-07 20:17:03] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, number 8, Tope again with alias articles. Huh, am I getting déjà vu? Floor is yours.
[2020-11-07 20:17:06] <Toprawa> Thank you
[2020-11-07 20:17:15] <Toprawa> Alias articles
[2020-11-07 20:17:27] <Toprawa> We have more than 200 alias articles.
[2020-11-07 20:17:32] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Aliases,_nicknames,_and_pseudonyms
[2020-11-07 20:17:34] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Category:Aliases, nicknames, and pseudonyms | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:17:41] <Toprawa> I don't think they need to be individual articles.
[2020-11-07 20:17:54] <Toprawa> Why do we need 12 different pages for every alias Mara Jade used or whatever?
[2020-11-07 20:18:11] <Toprawa> I am proposing that we merge these articles with their main subject
[2020-11-07 20:18:26] <Toprawa> Now, there was some procedural disagreement over this topic last Mofference that prevented it from going to a formal vote
[2020-11-07 20:18:45] <Toprawa> Though we did hold a non-binding straw poll that resulted in 15-0 support for the proposal
[2020-11-07 20:19:10] <Toprawa> To note, I have spoken with the BCs ahead of time, and they have agreed with the legality of this measure
[2020-11-07 20:19:34] <Toprawa> Because this is modifying an old earlier consensus resolution
[2020-11-07 20:19:41] <Culator> 👍
[2020-11-07 20:20:11] <Toprawa> This will create a new section called "Aliases, nicknames, and pseudonyms" under Notability policy#In-universe articles
[2020-11-07 20:20:33] <Toprawa> That will look like this:
[2020-11-07 20:20:36] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Toprawa_and_Ralltiir/Zev_Senesca
[2020-11-07 20:20:37] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User talk:Toprawa and Ralltiir/Zev Senesca | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:20:56] <Toprawa> The floor, Sir Thomas
[2020-11-07 20:21:00] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:21:08] <Ayrehead02> Supported before and I support now
[2020-11-07 20:21:12] <Tommy-Macaroni> ^
[2020-11-07 20:21:15] <MasterFred> Agreed back then and that is unchanged.
[2020-11-07 20:21:21] <Ratts_T> Yep, this works
[2020-11-07 20:21:21] <Erebus_Chronus> I fully support this
[2020-11-07 20:21:21] <Winterz> ~support
[2020-11-07 20:21:26] <NanoLuuke> 200% support
[2020-11-07 20:21:32] <CorellianPremier> Agreed
[2020-11-07 20:21:40] <Winterz> never understood why there were still alias articles for single individuals
[2020-11-07 20:21:48] <Ratts_T> My only concern would have been the Fulcrum situation, and Tope's covered that
[2020-11-07 20:21:54] <Lewisr> Because we didn't have this Winterz :P
[2020-11-07 20:21:55] <Imperators> per Ratts extremely
[2020-11-07 20:22:05] <Shayanomer> Prepare yourselves because there will be a lot of work to do after this passes
[2020-11-07 20:22:31] <Erebus_Chronus> Indeed
[2020-11-07 20:22:34] <Culator> I was there for the original alias CT, and it was clear that the original intent of most of the voters was to support jSarek's idea that alias articles should be no more than glorified soft redirects. Since then, they've gone WAY beyond that, and this proposal is BARELY modifying the ORIGINAL intent of the old CT.
[2020-11-07 20:22:38] <Winterz> I was pretty sure it had been discussed before Lewisr, but assumed these articles became forgotten :b
[2020-11-07 20:22:48] <Winterz> just waiting to be exterminated
[2020-11-07 20:23:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we all seem in agreement. Culator, if you please
[2020-11-07 20:23:13] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Notability policy#In-universe articles with new "Aliases, nicknames, and pseudonyms" section:
[2020-11-07 20:23:43] <Culator> #startvote Update notability policy with new alias rule? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 20:23:43] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Update notability policy with new alias rule? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 20:23:43] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 20:23:44] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:45] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:46] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:46] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:46] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:47] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:49] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:49] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:23:55] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:24:15] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 20:24:29] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 20:24:29] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Update notability policy with new alias rule?" Results are
[2020-11-07 20:24:29] <Nuku-Nuku> support (17): CorellianPremier, Ayrehead02, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Toprawa, miki, Tommy-Macaroni, Lewisr, Culator, OOM-224, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, Imperators, Winterz, DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 20:24:34] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:24:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Notability policy#In-universe articles with new "Aliases, nicknames, and pseudonyms" section passes 17-0
[2020-11-07 20:24:46] <Tommy-Macaroni> Nearly there. Last scheduled item, Tope’s amendment to Sourcing policy. Let’s go.
[2020-11-07 20:24:50] <Toprawa> Thank you
[2020-11-07 20:24:58] <Toprawa> I am proposing a simple amendment to the WP:S Rules
[2020-11-07 20:25:06] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Sourcing#Rules
[2020-11-07 20:25:07] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Sourcing | Wookieepedia | Fandom (at starwars.fandom.com)
[2020-11-07 20:25:21] <Toprawa> One that is a very longstanding precedent but something we've neglected to formally put in writing
[2020-11-07 20:25:52] <Toprawa> When articles cite info from comic books, we require that they do so by individual comic issue, not story arc or series
[2020-11-07 20:26:15] <Toprawa> Sliding into this list as new Item 10 (with the current item 10 becoming item 11) is:
[2020-11-07 20:26:22] <Toprawa> Articles shall cite information from comic books by individual comic issue or comic story, not by overall series or story arc.
[2020-11-07 20:26:33] <Toprawa> The floor, Sir Thomas
[2020-11-07 20:26:39] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:26:51] <Ratts_T> Easy support
[2020-11-07 20:26:55] <Tommy-Macaroni> Full support, nice to have this in writing finally
[2020-11-07 20:26:56] <Ayrehead02> I mean this is about as strong as precedent gets
[2020-11-07 20:26:58] <Zed42> Always good to codify precedent
[2020-11-07 20:27:01] <Imperators> uh, is there a reason why we're singling out comic books here?
[2020-11-07 20:27:06] <NanoLuuke> Oh, I was wondering about that just today (not the first time), but yeah, support
[2020-11-07 20:27:14] <Erebus_Chronus> Thank god for codifications
[2020-11-07 20:27:16] <Shayanomer> Support for sure, seen a lot of old FAs with that kind of referencing, yuck
[2020-11-07 20:27:32] <Toprawa> Imperators, if you want to expand on this, you're welcome to
[2020-11-07 20:27:38] <Toprawa> This proposal is for comic books
[2020-11-07 20:27:50] <MasterFred> I was about to ask, can we just say "individual media, not story arcs, compilations, or series."
[2020-11-07 20:28:10] <MasterFred> We can expand outside the mofference, though
[2020-11-07 20:28:19] <Toprawa> But, yes
[2020-11-07 20:28:31] <NanoLuuke> media could be TPB, it might need to be more precise
[2020-11-07 20:28:32] <Toprawa> The *real* reason I'm focusing on comic book is because this should be a rule
[2020-11-07 20:28:37] <Toprawa> We probe articles for this at review meetings
[2020-11-07 20:28:43] <Toprawa> So it needs to be written down somewhere formally
[2020-11-07 20:29:47] <Imperators> (I'm fine with this)
[2020-11-07 20:30:09] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, let's vote then. Ping Culator
[2020-11-07 20:30:09] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Wookieepedia:Sourcing#Rules with a rule stipulating comic references can only be single issues/stories:
[2020-11-07 20:30:09] <Toprawa> Actually
[2020-11-07 20:30:10] <Toprawa> Wait
[2020-11-07 20:30:15] <Toprawa> Nano brings up a good point
[2020-11-07 20:30:23] <Toprawa> I'd like to make one minor modification to this
[2020-11-07 20:30:26] <Toprawa> Just to clarify for people
[2020-11-07 20:30:41] <Toprawa> Articles shall cite information from comic books by individual comic issue or comic story, not by overall series, story arc, or trade paperback.
[2020-11-07 20:30:55] <Toprawa> We have had instances where articles have tried sourcing stuff to TPBs
[2020-11-07 20:31:06] <Ratts_T> No objections
[2020-11-07 20:31:06] <Toprawa> So it's good to note that
[2020-11-07 20:31:09] <Ayrehead02> Works for me, good catch Nano
[2020-11-07 20:31:15] <NanoLuuke> Happy to help for once ^^
[2020-11-07 20:31:26] <Erebus_Chronus> Yeah, someone else is paying attention, too
[2020-11-07 20:31:27] <Tommy-Macaroni> Could we say compilation, just to add HCs to that?
[2020-11-07 20:31:50] <Toprawa> Yeah, that's fair
[2020-11-07 20:32:24] <Toprawa> change "trade paperback" to "or compilation (such as trade paperbacks or hardcover collections)"?
[2020-11-07 20:32:32] <Tommy-Macaroni> Works for me
[2020-11-07 20:32:40] <Ratts_T> ^
[2020-11-07 20:32:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah, that's good
[2020-11-07 20:32:59] <Toprawa> Cool, cool
[2020-11-07 20:33:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> Right, let's go then. Culator, please
[2020-11-07 20:33:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> Vote to update Wookieepedia:Wookieepedia:Sourcing#Rules with a rule stipulating comic references can only be single issues/stories:
[2020-11-07 20:33:23] <Culator> #startvote Add individual comic referencing rule to WP:S? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 20:33:23] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Add individual comic referencing rule to WP:S? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 20:33:24] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 20:33:25] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:25] <Imperators> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Toprawa> #support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <OOM-224> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Winterz> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:26] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:27] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:27] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:27] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:28] <Culator> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:28] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:30] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:31] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:41] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 20:33:44] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:33:53] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:34:02] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 20:34:02] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Add individual comic referencing rule to WP:S?" Results are
[2020-11-07 20:34:02] <Nuku-Nuku> support (17): OOM-224, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Tommy-Macaroni, miki, Toprawa, Lewisr, DarthRuiz30, Culator, Winterz, Erebus_Chronus, Imperators, Ratts_T, Ayrehead02, CorellianPremier
[2020-11-07 20:34:09] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:34:18] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to update Wookieepedia:Wookieepedia:Sourcing#Rules with a rule stipulating comic references can only be single issues/stories passes 17-0
[2020-11-07 20:34:37] <Tommy-Macaroni> Okay, and we’re done. We’re doing pretty fine for time, so if anyone want to throw in any more proposals or just throw ideas around while we’re all here, now’s the time.
[2020-11-07 20:34:41] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:34:44] <Toprawa> VOTE NOW
[2020-11-07 20:34:45] <Toprawa> VOTE NOW
[2020-11-07 20:34:46] <Toprawa> VOTE NOW
[2020-11-07 20:35:16] <Lewisr> Order!
[2020-11-07 20:35:16] <DarthRuiz30> I have a topic
[2020-11-07 20:35:22] <Erebus_Chronus> Nothing from me
[2020-11-07 20:35:27] <DarthRuiz30> The recently brought up discussion about leaks in the spoiler channel
[2020-11-07 20:35:35] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:35:39] <Tommy-Macaroni> Go for it Ruiz
[2020-11-07 20:35:42] <Tommy-Macaroni> Floor is yours
[2020-11-07 20:36:24] <DarthRuiz30> So, recently it was brought up that people used the Spoilers channel to discuss leaks, rumors and unnofficial released information about different SW media
[2020-11-07 20:37:53] <DarthRuiz30> Since people like to discuss these topics, I spoke with several members of the Admin tema and we came up with possible solutions
[2020-11-07 20:38:48] <DarthRuiz30> We either don't allow the discussion at all, we can create a leaks channel for Discord or mandate the use of spoiler tags for leaks
[2020-11-07 20:39:10] <DarthRuiz30> We don't have to decide today, but I think its something worth discussing
[2020-11-07 20:39:38] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:39:48] <Tommy-Macaroni> Assuming you're done :P Floor is open
[2020-11-07 20:39:57] <Toprawa> I'm generally in favor of not creating new channels if at all possible
[2020-11-07 20:39:58] <Ratts_T> I think it's important to clarify what a leak is in this instance. The one that was originally brought up in Discord was an officially released card from Topps.
[2020-11-07 20:40:21] <Ratts_T> I wouldn't call that a leak
[2020-11-07 20:40:26] <Toprawa> I wouldn't either
[2020-11-07 20:40:30] <Shayanomer> I think we can draw the line at Lucasfilm vs. non-Lucasfilm announcements
[2020-11-07 20:40:39] <Toprawa> We've defined that too for article content, FWIW
[2020-11-07 20:40:45] <DarthRuiz30> Ratts: That's true, but I have seen other information that its a 100% considered a leak
[2020-11-07 20:40:52] <Toprawa> Anything that comes from official outlets is not by definition a leak
[2020-11-07 20:40:52] <Ayrehead02> As someone who never wants to see leaks under any circumstances, but defintely wants to take part in spoilers discussion, I'd prefer a separate channel, but would be fine with either option
[2020-11-07 20:41:24] <Erebus_Chronus> As have I, and it ruins the recently released media for SW
[2020-11-07 20:41:35] <Lewisr> Yeah I agree with Ayre, guilty of openly discussing stuff so apologies on that
[2020-11-07 20:41:36] <NanoLuuke> I have a question, since you spoke of "unnoficial released information" this might need clarification. A lot of sources used in OOU are unnoficial, so I have reserve everytime someone use that word ^^.
[2020-11-07 20:41:36] <DarthRuiz30> My main concern as Ayre said, there's people who want to discuss spoilers, but not leaks at all.
[2020-11-07 20:41:39] <Ratts_T> I enjoy discussing leaks, but yes, people who don't shouldn't have to see them just cause they want to talk about the Mandalorian
[2020-11-07 20:42:17] ⇐ Winterz quit (55f33c23@wookieepedia/Winterz): Quit: Connection closed
[2020-11-07 20:42:23] <Ratts_T> Or whatever piece of media is relevant
[2020-11-07 20:42:29] <MasterFred> Nano: This is about Discord.
[2020-11-07 20:42:34] <DarthRuiz30> Nano: Scoops, rumors, casting news from a random casting website
[2020-11-07 20:42:36] <Comm_Boots> So from what I'm hearing, spoilers are things that have been officially released but others may not have seen yet, and leaks are unofficial rumors of future released content.
[2020-11-07 20:42:43] <Shayanomer> I strongly prefer if we avoid leaks altogether
[2020-11-07 20:42:45] <Zed42> I don't know if an entire channel just for leaks is necessary. That feels like legitimizing them
[2020-11-07 20:42:57] <Toprawa> There should be a difference in definition between a leak and an unconfirmed report
[2020-11-07 20:42:59] <Comm_Boots> Maybe call them "rumors?"
[2020-11-07 20:43:06] <NanoLuuke> I understand Fred, it just... unnoficial in regard to unreleased content, is that right?
[2020-11-07 20:43:08] <Toprawa> A leak is something that someone is, like, illegally revealing
[2020-11-07 20:43:10] <Shayanomer> I'm sure many of you don't like having stories ruined before their official dates
[2020-11-07 20:43:28] <MasterFred> Yeah, if someone broke an NDA to put the info out, it's a leak.
[2020-11-07 20:43:38] <DarthRuiz30> Rumors are fine with me. Several times people like to discuss information that its presented as leaks by certain website, but they can be considered rumors
[2020-11-07 20:43:40] <Toprawa> Unconfirmed news reports from an anonymous source is not a leak
[2020-11-07 20:43:57] <Toprawa> That's essentially a rumor
[2020-11-07 20:44:07] <Ratts_T> I'd be fine with discussing rumors
[2020-11-07 20:44:12] <Erebus_Chronus> As would I
[2020-11-07 20:44:16] <Comm_Boots> Same.
[2020-11-07 20:44:23] <Shayanomer> I'm not a fan of rumors either tbh
[2020-11-07 20:44:33] <Ayrehead02> True, although ideally those would be discussed in the leak channel as they reveal story details that Lucasfilm don't intend the viewer to know before release
[2020-11-07 20:44:35] <Ratts_T> But what if there's a situation where a rumor later becomes a leak?
[2020-11-07 20:44:58] <Comm_Boots> Rumors and leaks are term so ambiguous they should be treated as one and the same.
[2020-11-07 20:44:59] <Ayrehead02> Stuff like the various unconfirmed casting rumours for the new season of Mando spoil a lot
[2020-11-07 20:45:26] <Lewisr> Yeah that's a prime example Ayre
[2020-11-07 20:45:56] <Ratts_T> For instance, some site has a "scoop" that we all laugh about, but then next week someone has on-set photos of said scoop. Can we no longer discuss the scoop?
[2020-11-07 20:46:06] <Toprawa> I will say, the original intent of #spoilers going back to its IRC channel version was to protect people who hadn't seen a newly released film, for example
[2020-11-07 20:46:07] <Erebus_Chronus> Yes, like the rumors that Ahsoka or some people will be in season 2 are annoying
[2020-11-07 20:46:19] <Toprawa> It was not for leaks or rumors
[2020-11-07 20:46:31] <DarthRuiz30> Ratts: That's why we don't want people discussing scoops in the Spoilers channel
[2020-11-07 20:46:44] <Toprawa> So if you wanted to prohibit leaks and rumors altogether, that would be within the spirit of the original channel intention
[2020-11-07 20:47:00] <Shayanomer> I'm totally down for that
[2020-11-07 20:47:11] <Ratts_T> It's fair honestly
[2020-11-07 20:47:11] <Shayanomer> Keep it to official released content
[2020-11-07 20:47:19] <Erebus_Chronus> Yes
[2020-11-07 20:47:26] <Zed42> I would prefer that over a leaks channel
[2020-11-07 20:47:30] <Comm_Boots> Agreed.
[2020-11-07 20:47:31] <Toprawa> per Zed
[2020-11-07 20:47:33] <DarthRuiz30> I would be fine with it
[2020-11-07 20:47:41] <MasterFred> If I'm being honest, we should really be keeping every channel as much as possible related to what we do here on the wiki.
[2020-11-07 20:47:41] <Comm_Boots> But I'd also be down for a rumors channel.
[2020-11-07 20:47:50] <MasterFred> We ignore all leaks and rumors on the wiki. :P
[2020-11-07 20:47:51] <CorellianPremier> Leaks are annoying; this is best.
[2020-11-07 20:47:53] <Erebus_Chronus> I'd be down for neither
[2020-11-07 20:48:02] <Ratts_T> A leaks channel, as someone said, would legitimize them, which isn't best for the Wook image
[2020-11-07 20:48:04] <Ayrehead02> neither Erebus? :P
[2020-11-07 20:48:13] <Erebus_Chronus> No rumors or leaks channel
[2020-11-07 20:48:13] <Toprawa> That's a good point, Ratts
[2020-11-07 20:48:16] <Shayanomer> Oh one more thing
[2020-11-07 20:48:18] <Ayrehead02> Ah right I see
[2020-11-07 20:48:18] <Toprawa> And whoever said it, which I missed
[2020-11-07 20:48:23] <DarthRuiz30> That's what pretty much did yesterday, when I advised to not talk leaks in there
[2020-11-07 20:48:38] <Shayanomer> What about accidental posts like that Disney+ image revealing Rosario Dawson's role?
[2020-11-07 20:48:39] <Zed42> There are other places to discuss leaks, and we don't need to legitimize leaks and rumors with no basis
[2020-11-07 20:48:47] <NanoLuuke> What Ratts said
[2020-11-07 20:48:53] <Ayrehead02> Ah damn it Shay I hadn't even seen that
[2020-11-07 20:49:05] <Ratts_T> Oof
[2020-11-07 20:49:09] <DarthRuiz30> There's plenty of Discords or websites to discuss them
[2020-11-07 20:49:11] <MasterFred> Yeah, can we be a little more careful in here?
[2020-11-07 20:49:20] <Imperators> heh
[2020-11-07 20:49:21] <Erebus_Chronus> Yes please
[2020-11-07 20:49:22] <MasterFred> We don't need to give specific examples.
[2020-11-07 20:49:27] <Shayanomer> Sorry
[2020-11-07 20:49:40] <Ratts_T> That would be an official source though Shay
[2020-11-07 20:49:42] <Lewisr> But it raises a good point
[2020-11-07 20:49:47] <Toprawa> That would essentially be a leak
[2020-11-07 20:49:52] <Toprawa> Since it was reversed
[2020-11-07 20:49:58] <Toprawa> And not intended
[2020-11-07 20:50:04] <Ratts_T> Oh it was reversed?
[2020-11-07 20:50:12] <Comm_Boots> I'm just saying that it's like the black market. If we don't regulate such discussion then it will continually pop up in other channels unless there's an official channel made specifically for it.
[2020-11-07 20:50:14] <Toprawa> I mean, they pulled it back, didn't they?
[2020-11-07 20:50:17] <Lewisr> Yeah they took it down Ratts
[2020-11-07 20:50:17] <Toprawa> That's what I meant
[2020-11-07 20:50:23] <Ratts_T> Wasn't aware
[2020-11-07 20:50:43] <Tommy-Macaroni> Right, we seem to kinda be going round in circles atm, I feel we're ready to vote now?
[2020-11-07 20:51:06] <Ratts_T> Boots: not if it's written into the rules that leaks aren't tolerated
[2020-11-07 20:51:06] <Toprawa> Do it
[2020-11-07 20:51:07] <Tommy-Macaroni> So, vote to prohibit Rumors and Leaks in #spoilers
[2020-11-07 20:51:11] <Tommy-Macaroni> Culator, if you please
[2020-11-07 20:51:45] <Culator> #startvote Prohibit rumors and leaks in spoiler channel? support, oppose
[2020-11-07 20:51:46] <Nuku-Nuku> Begin voting on: Prohibit rumors and leaks in spoiler channel? Valid vote options are support, oppose.
[2020-11-07 20:51:46] <Nuku-Nuku> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
[2020-11-07 20:51:48] <Erebus_Chronus> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:48] <miki> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:49] <NanoLuuke> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:50] <Lewisr> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:50] <Toprawa> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:51] <Tommy-Macaroni> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:52] <Ratts_T> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:52] <Shayanomer> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:52] <Ayrehead02> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:54] <DarthRuiz30> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:54] <Zed42> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:54] <Culator> #vote oppose
[2020-11-07 20:51:56] <CorellianPremier> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:51:57] <MasterFred> #vote support
[2020-11-07 20:52:27] <Culator> Closing vote in 10.
[2020-11-07 20:52:39] <Culator> #endvote
[2020-11-07 20:52:40] <Nuku-Nuku> Voted on " Prohibit rumors and leaks in spoiler channel?" Results are
[2020-11-07 20:52:40] <Nuku-Nuku> support (13): CorellianPremier, Ayrehead02, Shayanomer, Zed42, MasterFred, NanoLuuke, Tommy-Macaroni, miki, Toprawa, Lewisr, Ratts_T, Erebus_Chronus, DarthRuiz30
[2020-11-07 20:52:40] <Nuku-Nuku> oppose (1): Culator
[2020-11-07 20:52:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> Motion to prohibit Rumors and Leaks in #spoilers passes 13-1
[2020-11-07 20:53:04] * Channel mode set to +m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:53:50] <Tommy-Macaroni> OK, we're nearing the 2 hour mark so I'm gonna call this to an end. If anyone has anything else, feel free to discuss regularly with everyone here. Thank you all for coming, good work on the proposals people
[2020-11-07 20:53:53] * Channel mode set to -m by Tommy-Macaroni
[2020-11-07 20:54:01] <Tommy-Macaroni> Mofference adjourned