[02:01:22] <Toprawa> Welcome, everyone, to our third Mofference of 2019
[02:01:27] <Toprawa> We will get right into it
[02:01:31] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:01:37] <Toprawa> Also, apologies in advance if my Internet goes out
[02:01:42] <Toprawa> That's pretty much a Mofference tradition for me
[02:01:49] <Toprawa> If I stop talking suddenly, that's what happened
[02:01:54] <Toprawa> It comes back on after a minute or so
[02:02:09] <Toprawa> The first agenda item is presented by Toprawa
[02:02:19] <Toprawa> Governing the nomination pages
[02:02:59] <Toprawa> The members of the Inquisitorius, AgriCorps, and EduCorps are requesting the community grant them the autonomy to modify nomination page rules without the need to go through a consensus forum for every little thing
[02:03:28] <Toprawa> For example, if we want to change a rule that says an article needs to have no fewer than 2, instead of 3, redlinks, normally that needs a CT
[02:03:50] <Toprawa> Rather, we request the right to implement such changes ourselves
[02:04:00] <Toprawa> This isn't stripping any authority from the community
[02:04:15] <Toprawa> The community still has the power to overrule any change created by the reviewing bodies as well as pass things of their own volition
[02:04:20] <Toprawa> Rules don't /need/ to go through the Inq, for example
[02:04:31] <Toprawa> But such a thing would now be an option
[02:04:37] <Toprawa> Ok, floor is open
[02:04:43] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:04:52] <Ayrehead02> Sounds sensible to me
[02:04:59] <ecks> well, as a review body member, I'm partial to powah
[02:05:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> As an Inq, obviously support
[02:05:14] <AnilSerifoglu> ^
[02:05:18] <ecks> I kind of trust us to not implement any dumb shit, but it's good to know the community can override us
[02:05:23] <Toprawa> Indeed
[02:05:24] <Toprawa> per ecks
[02:05:44] <Toprawa> I should have added, this is the formal proposal wording:
[02:05:46] <Toprawa> The Wookieepedia Inquisitorius, AgriCorps, and EduCorps reviewing bodies each have the autonomy to govern and maintain the rules of their respective article- nomination pages -- Featured, Good, and Comprehensive article nominations.
[02:05:54] <Ayrehead02> Yeah if the community couldn't override I'd take issue, but this is really just about efficiency rather than power
[02:05:58] <Toprawa> That would go in the Mofference minutes
[02:06:05] <ecks> now, anyone who keeps up with meeting logs knows that I objected to our authority to change the rules unilaterally at a recent meeting, but that was more about if we have de jure authority
[02:06:06] <DarthRuiz30> sounds good to me, you guys know more about reviewing bodies and should be able to modify any rule to keep up the standard
[02:06:19] <spookly> Anything that promotes efficiency is great^
[02:06:27] <ecks> the concept is good and given its possible ratification now, I'm fine with it
[02:06:53] <Culator> Well, in theory the Congress can override any rule made by the IRS, ATF, whoever. But in practice, there are still VOLUMES of idiotic rules getting created every goddamn year.
[02:06:53] <Toprawa> Ok, everyone seems to be on the same page here, so we'll open the vote in a moment
[02:07:18] <Toprawa> Well, you know we love bureaucracy :P
[02:07:25] <Ayrehead02> We'll trust you keep us in check then Culator
[02:07:26] <ecks> I love democracy.
[02:07:44] <Toprawa> Please vote Support or Oppose on granting governance autonomy to the three reviewing bodies:
[02:07:45] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:07:45] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:07:50] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:07:50] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:07:50] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:07:51] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:07:51] <Ayrehead02> ~Support
[02:07:51] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:07:52] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:07:52] <Imperators> ~support
[02:07:52] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:07:52] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:07:52] <miki> ~support
[02:07:52] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:07:52] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:07:52] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:07:55] <spookly> ~support
[02:07:55] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:08:01] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:08:02] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:08:04] <Toprawa> I'm hoping there are 10 people here :P
[02:08:10] <ecks> so this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause
[02:08:12] <ecks> ~support
[02:08:12] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:08:34] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:08:34] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:08:34] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 10
[02:08:40] <Toprawa> Measure passes, 10-0
[02:08:44] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:08:45] <Toprawa> Next item
[02:08:52] <Toprawa> Imperators
[02:08:57] <Imperators> thank you
[02:09:26] <Imperators> this should be short and sweet, and undertitled "Death to columned reference lists!"
[02:09:49] <Imperators> here's an example of a columned reference list: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/RX-Series_pilot_droid/Legends#Notes_and_references
[02:09:50] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: RX-Series pilot droid | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:10:38] <Imperators> the main issue with columns in reference lists is that they sometimes can break up citation templates in an ugly way
[02:10:57] <Imperators> I propose we deal away with those.
[02:11:08] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:11:14] <Imperators> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Layout_Guide#Notes_and_references
[02:11:16] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Layout Guide | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:11:22] <ecks> oh, whoops
[02:11:24] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:11:30] <Imperators> here we should add a new bullet point between the third and fourth item
[02:11:32] <Tommy-Macaroni> YES
[02:11:37] <Imperators> "Reference lists will not be columned."
[02:11:52] <Imperators> that's it from me
[02:11:56] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:12:05] <ecks> given the narrow content width forced upon us by Fandom, this is a sensible decision
[02:12:12] <Ayrehead02> Hadn't even registered that this was a thing, but it definitely shouldn't be
[02:12:21] <Culator> [19:09] <@Imperators> this should be short and sweet, and undertitled "Death to columned reference lists!"
[02:12:32] <Toprawa> Not to be a stickler, but might we think of a better term than "columned"?
[02:12:35] <Culator> I had to resist the urge to slam my fist on my desk there.
[02:12:37] <Ayrehead02> Scrollboxes are fine for dealing with length, no need for differing formatting
[02:12:39] <Toprawa> Technically, the ref list is always columned
[02:12:51] <Toprawa> Whether there are one or two columns
[02:12:51] <Imperators> multi-columned?
[02:12:59] <ecks> just remove the column feature from {{Reflist}}
[02:13:00] <ecks> voilá
[02:13:02] <Toprawa> per ecks
[02:13:07] <Imperators> also, extremely per ecks
[02:13:12] <Ayrehead02> Works for me
[02:13:14] <GreenTentacle> Simple answer
[02:13:17] <DarthRuiz30> sounds good
[02:13:18] <ecks> I don't even know if we need to write this down in the LG if we just remove the feature
[02:13:23] <Toprawa> I agree
[02:13:30] <Toprawa> Just note in the Mofference minutes that we modified the template to remove this feature
[02:13:36] <GreenTentacle> Agreed
[02:13:38] <Imperators> also works for me
[02:13:55] <Culator> People might try to find a way to make it work. Plus we need to make it clear not to use the parameter.
[02:14:17] <Toprawa> Yeah, I can see that
[02:14:21] <ecks> throw a huge error if you try to pass a parameter to the template
[02:14:27] <ecks> like an erroneous cite_web does
[02:14:28] <Imperators> yes
[02:14:32] <Culator> I like that.
[02:14:51] <Culator> But we should remove it with a bot from existing pages first. :P
[02:14:53] <Toprawa> "Reference lists may not be multi-columned. This feature has been removed from Template:Reflist."?
[02:15:00] <ecks> <span style="color:red">THIS FEATURE WAS OUTLAWED LONG AGO. GET WITH THE TIMES."</span>
[02:15:00] <Tommy-Macaroni> Cool
[02:15:03] <Toprawa> To put in the LG
[02:15:10] <Imperators> ok
[02:15:14] <Culator> ^
[02:15:17] <ecks> works for me
[02:15:24] <AnilSerifoglu> ^
[02:15:25] <DarthRuiz30> same here
[02:15:34] <Toprawa> Ok, let's vote on all of this
[02:15:38] <Toprawa> Voting on ref list item
[02:15:39] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:15:40] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:15:44] <Ayrehead02> ~Support
[02:15:44] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:15:45] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:15:45] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:15:45] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:15:45] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:15:46] <spookly> ~support
[02:15:46] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:15:46] <Imperators> ~support
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:15:46] <miki> ~support
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:15:46] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:15:50] <Culator> ~support
[02:15:50] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:15:51] <ecks> ~support
[02:15:52] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:15:59] <Toprawa> Something else for us to probe on at Inqmoots :P
[02:16:02] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:16:02] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:16:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:16:06] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:16:20] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:16:20] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:16:20] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 12
[02:16:23] <Toprawa> Measure passes 12-0
[02:16:27] <Toprawa> Moving on
[02:16:37] <Toprawa> I'm skipping my item 3
[02:16:43] <Toprawa> So item 4
[02:16:45] <Toprawa> CAN intros
[02:17:07] <Toprawa> <s>liam</s>, ecks the shades
[02:17:09] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:17:18] <Toprawa> Ok
[02:17:29] <Toprawa> Ayrehead, Anil, and myself sat down and did some brain-crunching
[02:17:54] <Toprawa> It has been a persistent bugaboo for CANs going back like 10 years now regarding when and when not to include intros
[02:18:23] <Toprawa> At the April 2011 Mofference, we passed CAN Rule 13: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Comprehensive_article_nominations
[02:18:24] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Comprehensive article nominations | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:18:37] <Toprawa> …if the nominated article reaches 200 words or greater, the nominator must either provide an intro or draft an intro and provide a link to the revision in the nomination, showing that the intro does not elevate the article over 250 words. Exceptions can be made for articles wherein the majority of the text is in the "Behind the scenes" section.
[02:18:48] <Toprawa> It's a messy, unfavorable rule that was the best we could come up with at the time
[02:18:58] <Toprawa> But we think we have a better system now
[02:19:08] <Toprawa> Our proposal is to replace Rule 13 with the following:
[02:19:17] <Toprawa> An article must...
[02:19:21] <Toprawa> ...provide an introduction if it reaches 165 words, not counting the "Behind the scenes" section . Conversely, an article may not have an introduction if it is less than 165 words, not counting the "Behind the scenes" section.
[02:19:42] <Toprawa> We went through a lot of existing CAs and found that 165 is a very nice middle ground
[02:20:04] <Toprawa> Even better, we found that very few CAs even approach 165 non-BTS words, so this actually affects relatively few articles
[02:20:21] <Toprawa> But more importantly, it gives us a clear and objective position for when to intro an article, which we've never had before
[02:20:23] <Toprawa> Ok, floor
[02:20:28] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:20:43] <AnilSerifoglu> I couldn't agree more on this
[02:20:51] <Ayrehead02> Anil you helped make the rule :P
[02:20:53] <ecks> given that Bts material isn't included in the intro, it's sensible to ignore the Bts for the purpose of judging when an intro should be included
[02:21:08] <AnilSerifoglu> Yeah
[02:21:13] <Imperators> so some CAs and some GAs may get probed
[02:21:17] <ecks> and, I mean, 165 is completely arbitrary but so are all other numbers and you guys seem to have done some research on this
[02:21:29] <Tommy-Macaroni> Excellent
[02:22:15] <Toprawa> So are speed limits, but they generally seem to work :P
[02:22:25] <ecks> speak for yourself :P
[02:22:28] <ecks> anyway, this sounds good
[02:22:59] <GreenTentacle> Yeah, sounds good.
[02:23:07] <DarthRuiz30> ^
[02:23:09] <Toprawa> Ok, let's vote
[02:23:13] <Toprawa> Vote now on CAN intro rule
[02:23:14] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:23:14] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:23:15] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:23:15] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:23:16] <spookly> ~support
[02:23:16] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:23:17] <Imperators> ~support
[02:23:17] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:23:17] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:23:17] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:23:17] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:23:18] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:23:19] <miki> ~support
[02:23:19] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:23:22] <ecks> ~support
[02:23:22] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:23:22] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:23:22] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:23:31] <Culator> ~support
[02:23:32] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:23:45] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:23:45] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:23:59] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:24:00] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:24:14] <Toprawa> Please get your votes in if you haven't
[02:24:25] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:24:25] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:24:25] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 11
[02:24:29] <Toprawa> Measure passes, 11-0
[02:24:32] <Toprawa> NEXT
[02:24:35] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:24:42] <Toprawa> Toprawa
[02:24:45] <Toprawa> Links
[02:24:59] <Toprawa> Last Mofference we ratified a how-to links section for the Manual of Style
[02:25:09] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Manual_of_Style#Linking
[02:25:10] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Manual of Style | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:25:24] <Toprawa> Even as that item was being discussed, some people brought up some things it was missing, which we sort of tabled at the time
[02:25:32] <Toprawa> So I'm going back and trying to cover everything I can think of
[02:25:49] <Toprawa> Which I will show you in a moment...
[02:26:25] <Toprawa> Ok, sorry
[02:26:28] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Toprawa_and_Ralltiir/Some_Like_it_Hoth
[02:26:29] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User talk:Toprawa and Ralltiir/Some Like it Hoth | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:26:32] <Toprawa> Everything in bold is what's new
[02:26:44] <Toprawa> This really doesn't change anything we don't already do
[02:26:47] <Toprawa> Just codifies it
[02:26:50] <Toprawa> Ok, floor
[02:26:56] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:27:27] <ecks> this makes perfect sense
[02:27:38] <ecks> I'm a fan of codifying the grammatical articles stuff
[02:27:43] <AnilSerifoglu> Yeah, I agree
[02:27:43] <Toprawa> ugh, yes
[02:27:44] <Toprawa> I hate that
[02:28:04] <Imperators> this does not cover [[Death]] [[Star]], does it?
[02:28:16] <Tommy-Macaroni> Excellent
[02:28:18] <Toprawa> I didn't attempt to cover that one, though I was thinking about it
[02:28:22] <Toprawa> I'm not sure the best way to do that one yet
[02:28:25] <Imperators> ok
[02:28:35] <Ayrehead02> All looks good
[02:28:40] <Imperators> per the guys
[02:28:52] <ecks> yeah, we can add that later
[02:28:59] <Lewisr> Makes sense
[02:29:12] <Toprawa> Ok, this is pretty straightforward it seems, so let's vote
[02:29:19] <Toprawa> Voting on links addition to MOS
[02:29:22] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:29:22] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:29:24] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:29:24] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:29:25] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:29:25] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:29:25] <Imperators> ~support
[02:29:25] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:29:25] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:29:25] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:29:26] <spookly> ~support
[02:29:26] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:29:26] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:29:26] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:29:26] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:29:27] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:29:28] <miki> ~support
[02:29:28] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:29:34] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:29:34] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:29:35] <Culator> ~support
[02:29:36] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:29:36] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:29:36] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:29:38] <ecks> ~support
[02:29:38] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:29:46] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds. Get your votes in now.
[02:29:58] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:29:58] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:29:58] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 12
[02:30:02] <Toprawa> Measure passes 12-0
[02:30:03] <Toprawa> NEXT
[02:30:09] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:30:17] <Toprawa> ecks, did you want to go now?
[02:30:19] <ecks> sure
[02:30:21] <Toprawa> Ok
[02:30:40] <ecks> alright, we ratified the creation of a Social Media Team for Wookieepedia back in January, at the Mofference
[02:31:18] <ecks> tl;dr two admins (currently Toprawa and I) + a number of users have access to the accounts
[02:31:31] <ecks> is this written down somewhere? yes, in the Mofference minutes
[02:31:38] <ecks> could it be presented in a better format? also yes
[02:31:54] <ecks> meet Wookieepedia:Contact, the latest and greatest thing
[02:31:58] <ecks> https://ecks.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Contact
[02:32:00] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Contact | Ecks Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at ecks.fandom.com)
[02:32:15] <ecks> This page essentially lists ways to contact our *official representatives*
[02:32:28] <ecks> individual Wookieepedians don't represent the site, the Social Media Team does
[02:32:57] <ecks> since users will inevitably want to contact us in scenarios other than social media-related issues, there's also kind of a written-down flowchart for getting help with other issues
[02:33:07] <ecks> but yeah, that's pretty much it
[02:33:16] <ecks> please read through the page; I'm gonna open the floor for discussion now
[02:33:17] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:33:19] <Toprawa> We've needed this for some time
[02:33:26] <Toprawa> Plus it's nice to list the SMT someplace
[02:33:32] <Ayrehead02> Agreed, and this draft looks great
[02:34:03] <Tommy-Macaroni> Very nice ecks
[02:34:13] <AnilSerifoglu> Yeah, it looks great
[02:34:25] <DarthRuiz30> looks really good
[02:34:45] <Toprawa> Ok, let's vote
[02:34:49] <Toprawa> Vote on Contact page
[02:34:50] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:34:50] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:34:51] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:34:51] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:34:52] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:34:52] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:34:52] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:34:52] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:34:53] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:34:53] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:34:54] <Culator> ~support
[02:34:54] <spookly> ~support
[02:34:54] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:34:55] <Imperators> ~support
[02:34:55] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:34:55] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:34:56] <ecks> ~support
[02:34:56] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:34:59] <miki> ~support
[02:35:00] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:35:05] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:35:06] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:35:19] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:35:19] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:35:20] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds
[02:35:22] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:35:22] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:35:31] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:35:31] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:35:31] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 12
[02:35:34] <Toprawa> Measure passes 12-0
[02:35:35] <Toprawa> NEXT
[02:35:43] <Toprawa> Toprawa
[02:35:46] <Toprawa> Referencing with page numbers
[02:35:55] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:36:08] <Toprawa> Our status articles are inconsistent when it comes to referencing with page numbers, chapters, etc.
[02:36:30] <Toprawa> Not to pick on one person here, but User:SavageBob, who is no longer active, used to be the biggest perpetrator of this kind of thing
[02:36:47] <Toprawa> He loved to reference things by page number, which presented a few problems
[02:37:02] <Toprawa> Inconsistency being one of them, since we like all of our status articles to have a uniform presentation and approach
[02:37:23] <Toprawa> More significantly is the issue that not every printing and edition of a book has the same page numbers
[02:37:29] <Toprawa> eBooks are different from print versions
[02:37:39] <Toprawa> First printings are sometimes different from second printings
[02:37:45] <Toprawa> Hardcovers are different from paperbacks
[02:37:52] <Toprawa> English versions are different from Russian versions
[02:37:52] <Toprawa> etc.
[02:38:05] <Toprawa> There's no real great, uniform way to do this
[02:38:24] <Toprawa> Chapter numbers are typically the same, but not always, and even then you get into ridiculously long reference lists for long articles
[02:38:35] <Toprawa> An article that might have 40 individual references ends up with 240
[02:38:47] <Toprawa> Then you might get into page load issues
[02:38:50] <Toprawa> In short, it's a mes
[02:38:58] <Toprawa> s
[02:39:04] <Toprawa> I'm sure many of you have seen some of Bob's articles around
[02:39:21] <Toprawa> Imperators' example from before is actually a decent one https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/RX-Series_pilot_droid/Legends#Notes_and_references
[02:39:22] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: RX-Series pilot droid | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:39:36] <Toprawa> "Taking Off on a Star Tour" doesn't need five different individual refs
[02:39:45] <Toprawa> So, I am proposing an addition to the Rules section of WP:S
[02:39:51] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Sourcing#Rules
[02:39:52] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Sourcing | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:40:02] <Toprawa> This would become Rule 9, and the others would shift down one:
[02:40:09] <Toprawa> References may not cite information by individual page or chapter number, unless there is a specific referential need. This does not apply to citation templates that include page-number parameters, such as CSWECite.
[02:40:23] <Toprawa> The "specific referential need clause" leaves the door open for rare cases where this is necessary
[02:40:51] <Toprawa> For example, there is a droid article somewhere, forgive me I couldn't remember where, in which I wrote a ref about how the droid's image was used on the wrong droid entry on a different page, which was noted
[02:40:59] <Toprawa> Just a general example
[02:41:03] <Toprawa> Ok, floor open
[02:41:08] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:41:16] <AnilSerifoglu> I agree that avoiding the use of page numbers is probably the best option here
[02:41:16] <ecks> in theory, more specific referencing is better
[02:41:19] <Tommy-Macaroni> We definitely need this
[02:41:19] <ecks> in practice, it's chaos
[02:41:23] <Toprawa> per ecks
[02:41:30] <Tommy-Macaroni> Yeah, consistency
[02:41:40] <Toprawa> It's nice and helpful, but impractical and we're not writing our master's thesis
[02:41:40] <GreenTentacle> Having updated one of Savage Bob's articles recently, the page numbers were more annoying than anything.
[02:42:01] <ecks> in theory, you could have 200+ references *from a single novel*; it's not sustainable on a large scale
[02:42:19] <GreenTentacle> Also digital copies have made them even less useful since you can usually search.
[02:42:21] <Ayrehead02> Does this include chapter numbers as well?
[02:42:36] <Imperators> <Toprawa> References may not cite information by individual page or chapter number
[02:42:43] <Ayrehead02> Oh sorry ignore me, it's getting late
[02:42:44] <Imperators> [...]
[02:42:55] <Tommy-Macaroni> Same Ayre :P
[02:42:58] <Imperators> nice wording, Tope
[02:43:01] <Toprawa> Thank you :P
[02:43:03] <ecks> pfft it's 2:42 am here
[02:43:11] <AnilSerifoglu> ^
[02:43:12] <Ayrehead02> Then I salute you ecks
[02:43:16] <ecks> o7
[02:43:18] <Toprawa> yes, hats off to ecks :P
[02:43:22] <Toprawa> and Imperators :P
[02:43:25] <Imperators> yes
[02:43:26] <Ayrehead02> Anyway, I support this
[02:43:28] <Imperators> hats off
[02:43:34] <Toprawa> Hats off and votes on
[02:43:36] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:43:36] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:43:37] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:43:38] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:43:39] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:43:39] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:43:39] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:43:40] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:43:40] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:43:40] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:43:40] <Imperators> ~support
[02:43:41] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:43:41] <ecks> ~support
[02:43:41] <spookly> ~support
[02:43:41] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:43:41] <miki> ~support
[02:43:41] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:43:41] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:43:44] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:43:44] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:43:45] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:43:46] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:43:51] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:43:51] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:44:01] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds
[02:44:14] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:44:14] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:44:14] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 11
[02:44:17] <Toprawa> Measure passes 11-0
[02:44:18] <Toprawa> NEXT
[02:44:24] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:44:28] <Toprawa> Toprawa
[02:44:36] <Toprawa> Punctuation things
[02:44:48] <Toprawa> This will be a short two-part vote
[02:45:07] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Manual_of_Style#Italics_and_miscellaneous_grammar
[02:45:08] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: Wookieepedia:Manual of Style | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:45:22] <Toprawa> I am proposing a new subsection here, called "Punctuation"
[02:45:51] <Toprawa> For the first vote, the "Apostrophes" section will move under this new Punctuation section, and will be supplemented with the following:
[02:46:06] <Toprawa> Articles shall avoid "smart" (also known as "typographic" or "curly") quotation marks and apostrophes by converting them to ASCII (also known as "neutral" or "straight") quotation marks and apostrophes. In other words, quotation marks and apostrophes on Wookieepedia should look like '...' and "...", not ‘...’ and “...”.
[02:46:18] <Toprawa> The curly apostrophes don't look as terrible on IRC as they do on articles
[02:46:29] <Toprawa> I will put this on a work page
[02:46:33] <Toprawa> FOr us to see
[02:46:36] <Toprawa> But floor open for this first item
[02:46:47] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:46:49] <Imperators> death to punctuation
[02:46:52] <Culator> [19:46] <@Toprawa> The curly apostrophes don't look as terrible on IRC as they do on articles
[02:46:53] <Tommy-Macaroni> Definitely
[02:46:55] <Toprawa> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Toprawa_and_Ralltiir/Some_Like_it_Hoth
[02:46:56] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: User talk:Toprawa and Ralltiir/Some Like it Hoth | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia (at starwars.fandom.com)
[02:46:57] <ecks> nothing we don't already do in practice
[02:47:00] <Tommy-Macaroni> We need to codify this
[02:47:00] <Culator> Depends on your client and font, actually.
[02:47:04] <Toprawa> Ah, yes
[02:47:08] <Culator> I see it just finr.
[02:47:11] <Culator> *fine
[02:47:16] <Culator> AND I HATE THEM
[02:47:22] <Toprawa> XD
[02:47:51] <Toprawa> Presuming there's no one in love with the Microsoft apostrophe
[02:47:55] <Toprawa> So let's vote on this first item
[02:47:57] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:47:58] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:47:59] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:47:59] <ecks> ~support
[02:47:59] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:47:59] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:48:00] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:48:00] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:48:02] <Imperators> ~support
[02:48:02] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:48:02] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:48:02] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:48:03] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:48:03] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:48:04] <Culator> ~support
[02:48:04] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:48:07] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:48:07] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:48:08] <spookly> ~support
[02:48:08] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:48:14] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:48:14] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:48:18] <miki> ~support
[02:48:18] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:48:28] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds
[02:48:33] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:48:33] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:48:37] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:48:37] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:48:37] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 12
[02:48:41] <Toprawa> Measure passes 12-0
[02:48:43] <Toprawa> Second item
[02:48:45] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:49:15] <Toprawa> Under that same section of the MOS, I am proposing the creation of a new section called "Serial comma"
[02:49:18] <Toprawa> Which will include the following:
[02:49:21] <Toprawa> Articles shall use the serial comma as standard.
[02:49:34] <Toprawa> Read this if you don't know why the serial comma is a grammatical necessity https://www.buzzfeed.com/adamdavis/the-oxford-comma-is-extremely-important-and-everyone-should
[02:49:35] <Nuku-Nuku> Title: The Oxford Comma Is Extremely Important And Everyone Should Be Using It (at www.buzzfeed.com)
[02:49:42] <Toprawa> We'll call it the JFK and Stalin are Strippers Rule :P
[02:49:45] <Toprawa> Floor open
[02:49:48] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:49:50] <Tommy-Macaroni> YES
[02:49:57] <Tommy-Macaroni> PLEASE
[02:50:03] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:50:03] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: There is no open vote on this channel.
[02:50:08] <Tommy-Macaroni> NO
[02:50:10] <Culator> I was hoping that article would have the strippers and it did not disappoint.
[02:50:13] <Imperators> Tommy sounds desperate
[02:50:55] <GreenTentacle> Fine, but it goes against what I was taught in school so you'll probably have to keep reminding me.
[02:51:00] <Toprawa> Will do :P
[02:51:09] <Imperators> heck, it goes against my native language :P
[02:51:25] <DarthRuiz30> ^
[02:51:37] <AnilSerifoglu> ^
[02:51:41] <Imperators> lol
[02:51:42] <miki> ^
[02:51:54] <Tommy-Macaroni> Damn foreign
[02:51:59] <Toprawa> Ok, let's vote on whether we want JFK and Stalin to be strippers or not :P
[02:52:00] <Tommy-Macaroni> *ers
[02:52:01] <Culator> The Oxford comma was literally invented by the Oxford University Press.
[02:52:01] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:52:01] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:52:04] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:52:04] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:52:05] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:52:05] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:52:05] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:52:05] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:52:05] <spookly> ~support
[02:52:05] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:52:07] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:52:07] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:52:07] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:52:07] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:52:08] <GreenTentacle> ~support
[02:52:08] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted.
[02:52:08] <miki> ~support
[02:52:09] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:52:10] <Imperators> ~support
[02:52:10] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:52:10] <Culator> ~support
[02:52:10] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:52:11] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:52:11] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:52:17] <Imperators> continental Europe has spoken
[02:52:26] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds
[02:52:33] <Imperators> er, sorry, Ruiz
[02:52:40] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:52:40] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:52:40] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 11
[02:52:41] <ecks> ~support
[02:52:41] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: There is no open vote on this channel.
[02:52:44] <ecks> aw shit
[02:52:54] <Toprawa> Sorry, ecks
[02:52:58] <Toprawa> Measure passes 11-0
[02:53:02] <Toprawa> NEXT
[02:53:12] <Toprawa> The last one, unless someone else has something
[02:53:15] <Toprawa> Toprawa
[02:53:18] <Toprawa> This one is easy and fun
[02:53:19] *** ecks sets mode: +m
[02:53:43] <Toprawa> Across articles, templates, and category names, Wookieepedia has always been inconsistent on whether we our status article systems or not
[02:53:50] <Toprawa> Is it "Featured article" or "featured article"?
[02:54:04] <Toprawa> I am proposing we capitalize Featured, Good, and Comprehensive in all instances as standard
[02:54:06] <Toprawa> Floor is open
[02:54:11] *** ecks sets mode: -m
[02:54:11] <Imperators> yes
[02:54:12] <Tommy-Macaroni> Very fun
[02:54:26] <ecks> as if this will stop me from decapitalizing them
[02:54:34] <Toprawa> We will ban
[02:54:34] <GreenTentacle> I'd go the exact opposite.
[02:54:45] <Toprawa> The capitalization helps identify them as a proper thing
[02:54:58] <Toprawa> An article can be both Good and good
[02:55:00] <Toprawa> Different meanings
[02:55:09] <Toprawa> A good article is not always Good
[02:55:13] <Toprawa> A Good article is always good
[02:55:20] <Tommy-Macaroni> Heh
[02:55:28] <Imperators> not always *cough*AC Meetings*cough*
[02:55:44] <GreenTentacle> True
[02:56:02] <GreenTentacle> I'm still not supporting though. :P
[02:56:05] <Toprawa> Fine :P
[02:56:09] <Toprawa> Let's vote
[02:56:11] <Toprawa> ~open
[02:56:11] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open.
[02:56:17] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support
[02:56:17] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted.
[02:56:18] <DarthRuiz30> ~support
[02:56:18] <Ayrehead02> ~support
[02:56:18] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted.
[02:56:18] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted.
[02:56:18] <Toprawa> ~support
[02:56:18] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted.
[02:56:19] <Lewisr> ~support
[02:56:19] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted.
[02:56:21] <miki> ~support
[02:56:22] <PurpleTentacle> miki: Support vote counted.
[02:56:22] <Imperators> ~support
[02:56:23] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted.
[02:56:30] <Culator> ~support
[02:56:30] <PurpleTentacle> Culator: Support vote counted.
[02:56:34] <ecks> ~support
[02:56:34] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted.
[02:56:34] <spookly> ~support
[02:56:34] <PurpleTentacle> spookly: Support vote counted.
[02:56:35] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support
[02:56:36] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted.
[02:56:41] <Toprawa> Closing vote in 10 seconds
[02:56:49] <Toprawa> ~close
[02:56:49] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed.
[02:56:49] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 11
[02:56:53] <Toprawa> Measure passes 11-0
[02:56:59] <Toprawa> I can't believe this still took two hours
[02:57:03] <Toprawa> Does anyone have anything else?
[02:57:07] <Imperators> pls no
[02:57:08] <ecks> two? I'm counting one
[02:57:27] <Toprawa> We started at 6 ET, yes?
[02:57:33] <Tommy-Macaroni> Noooooo
[02:57:35] <Tommy-Macaroni> No
[02:57:36] <Ayrehead02> Nothing from me, I'll bring up the FFG stuff as a CT once it's ready
[02:57:37] <Tommy-Macaroni> One hour
[02:57:41] <Tommy-Macaroni> Cool
[02:57:44] <Toprawa> What time did we start?
[02:57:50] <miki> 23 UTC
[02:57:50] <GreenTentacle> An hour ago. :P
[02:57:53] <Toprawa> Ok
[02:57:57] <Toprawa> I was never good at math :P
[02:57:59] <Imperators> thanks for hosting, Tope!
[02:58:02] <Toprawa> No problem
[02:58:05] <Toprawa> Thanks for coming, everyone
[02:58:06] <ecks> !yay
[02:58:07] <Nuku-Nuku> Meh.
[02:58:08] <Toprawa> Thanks to GT for the bot
[02:58:15] <GreenTentacle> No problem.
[02:58:16] <Imperators> thanks to GT
[02:58:38] *** Quits: PurpleTentacle (~bot@wookieepedia/administrator/GreenTentacle) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)