Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Saadoon-Kauldi

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Saadoon-Kauldi

  • Nominated by: Skippy Farlstendoiro 11:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: "I told you I didn't want any new Hutt crimelord for this RPG book, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to use your AD&D knowledge and create a dragon crimelord"

(4 ACs/1 Users/5 Total)

Support

  1. ACvote CC7567 (talk) 05:03, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
  2. ACvote Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 22:34, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
  3. ACvote Chack Jadson (Talk) 21:39, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
  4. Clone Commander Lee Talk 19:30, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
  5. Inqvote To FAN? --Eyrezer 23:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Object

  1. Where's the intro...=P Xd1358 Talk 13:46, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
  2. The Grand Master's First Look
    • The bio is extremely unwieldy; for its length it could use subsections, and, once again, why are there so many small paragraphs?
    • I'm seeing a lot of underlinking.
      • More links added. Skippy Farlstendoiro 12:41, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
        • This remains. I'm still seeing quite a bit of underlinking, but you've now got some overlinking as well, and you've also linked to several redirects. Please try to clean these up.
          • 2nd attempt. Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
            • Once again; this remains, albeit to a lesser extent. Please please please check and double-check all of your linking. You've been nominating articles for a while now, and this isn't something that I should have to reiterate. Also, was his criminal empire significant enough to deserve its own article; and why is there no article for his massacre on the slaver galleon?
              • Tried my best. Created articles on skirmishes and his empire, even if I don't think they're significant at all. Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:01, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
                • Partially better, but you've still got VERY messy linking. Things should be linked once in the intro, once in the body, and (if applicable) once in the infobox. Things should only be pipelinked if necessary (i.e. [[Officer/Legends|officer]]s, not [[Officer/Legends|officers]]) and if pipelinking, make sure the first letter is capitalized (i.e. [[Massacre on the slaver galleon|butchered the slavers]], not [[massacre on the slaver galleon|butchered the slavers]]). Also, try to avoid pipelinking to more than just a small phrase (i.e. this: [[Saadoon-Kauldi's anti-slaver campaign|dedicate all of his resources to the abduction of slaver ships]] is rather eccentric; it could very easily be worded differently so that the link only covers a few words). Jonjedigrandmaster (Jedi Beacon) 22:20, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • "Details have not been revealed" sounds awfully OR/speculative & OOU.
      • Details were not revealed IU; only rumors. Anyway, changed. Skippy Farlstendoiro 12:41, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
        • This still doesn't make sense. I'm not even sure that such an "unconfirmed rumor" belongs in an article.
    • Also seeing some grammatical errors.
      • Hope some less now. Skippy Farlstendoiro 12:41, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
        • Better, but still seeing several errors. Jonjedigrandmaster (Jedi Beacon) 16:14, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
          • 2nd attempt. Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
            • Much better. Still seeing a few minor errors, but most fall under {{sofixit}} so I'll strike for now and hopefully find the time to give this another full review and copyedit sometime soon. Jonjedigrandmaster (Jedi Beacon) 18:41, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • "and became a spice lord and a crimelord, strangely basing his power…" Strangely is way too POV.
    • More to come. Jonjedigrandmaster (Jedi Beacon) 14:40, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
  3. The Grand Master II
    • The P&T is exceptionally extensive. It needs to be cut down some.
      • Rearranged with info included in bio if possible, to avoid missing anything important. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 16:37, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • "intelligent, shrewd, stealthy and cultured" Does the source explicitly state these?
      • I used synonyms; he's described as: (a being of) devious cunning (=Shrewd), (with) intellectual stealth (=Intelligent + cultured + stealthy), and his RPG stats show him as a cultured person.
        • Okay for everything except stealthy. Right now you make it sound like he was good at sneaking around, which is not what "intellectual stealth" means. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 19:44, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • "Saadoon-Kauldi was said to reward efficient employees with money and favors, and to forgive employees who failed him once." "Was said?" Is it known whether he actually did or not?
    • "and sometimes admired as if he were a member of the Royalty." "The Royalty?" Whose royalty? There were lots of royalties in the galaxy.
    • "This person had no enemies among the criminals, except for the slavers, and was well regarded even by certain law enforcement agencies." Who do you mean, "this person"? Kauldi or a Hutt? (Either way, "person" does not work here)
    • "He believed in respecting the people he dealt with, even if he was in superiority of conditions." This is rather confusing. What exactly do you mean?
    • "This gave him several satisfactions, such as the Socorran Navy offering to send their ships should he ever needed his help." How is that a "satisfaction?" Wouldn't that be more of a favor?
      • Removed --Skippy Farlstendoiro 16:37, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
        • "This gave him several satisfactions." What do you mean? What satisfactions does this give him? It was more of the "satisfaction" that was awkwardly worded/confusing then the Navy's offer. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 16:58, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
          • Better? --Skippy Farlstendoiro 17:02, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
            • Yes, but the wording is still rather awkward. I would suggest using something other than "satisfactions;" also, does the source say "unexpected?" If not, it is OR and even somewhat POVish. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 17:10, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
              • Anything approaching OR or POV removed, including "satisfaction". Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:10, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
                • Now you've just contradicted yourself. Saying "deference was essential to his professional activities" is the opposite of what you just said: that he had no need to treat the people he dealt with with respect. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 19:29, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
    • Does the source actually state he became "paranoid"?
      • (...) have left the crime lord more than a little paranoid. Not changed. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:14, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • "Increasingly big and more restless, Saadoon-Kauldi wanted some permanent roots as of 0 ABY." What exactly do you mean, he "wanted some permanent roots?"
    • "Some Socorrans believed that, when that happened, Saadoon-Kauldi would go to the frozen surface of Neftali and disappear inside some cave." Do you literally mean that he would "disappear?" Either way, is this sentence really significant to the P&T?
      • Sentence changed; keep bc it tells about Saadoon's mid-term goals. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:14, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • The timeline of events in the bio is very murky because you give absolutely no dates. Even if exact BBY/ABY dates aren't always known, could you at least give some relative dating throughout the article (i.e. "shortly after the outbreak of the Galactic Civil War"; "at some point prior to the Galactic Civil War"; "shortly after the destruction of the Death Star"; "around the time of&hellip" etc.)?
      • Added one date. OS is probably murky on purpose to give freedom to RPG gamemasters. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 16:37, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
    • Does the source state that the Kadri'Ra were "dragon-like"?
      • Not changed: OS compares them with the Star Dragons. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:14, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 22:25, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
  4. The Grand Master III
    • Could you use something less colloquial than "up-and-comer"?
      • Done.
    • "increasing the Kadri'Ra's influence and range." Increasing his range in what?
      • Better?
    • "hired all the staff he could need, including smugglers;" First off, this doesn't fit in grammatically where you currently have it. Second, does the source say he hired "all the staff he could need?" It sounds rather hyperbolic to me.
      • Better?
    • "Saadoon-Kauldi became a prominent crime lord and reduced his public appearances." What exactly do you mean by public appearances?
      • Better?
    • "A chance to change airs" What exactly do you mean "change airs?"
    • "The Empire also began to actively attempt to enslave Saadoon-Kauldi again." When did they enslave him the first time?
      • Kauldi had been a slave, but OS doesn't specify whether an Imperial slave or not. Reworded to convey that meaning. Better?
    • "began asking the Kadri'Ra for advice in his venture to expand criminal influence outside Socorro." Who does "his" refer to? Saadoon-Kauldi or Abdi-Badawzi? Also, is Abdi-Badawzi related to the Badawzis that freed Saadoon-Kauldi?
      • Changed.
    • "and discovered the Kadri'Ra's worries." What worries specifically? Why is it important that he discovered them? Did he do anything about them?
      • Better?
    • "Saadoon-Kauldi then allied with Abdi-Badawzi" You mean he hadn't already? The previous paragraph concerning them made it sound like he had: "Abdi-Badawzi added Saadoon-Kauldi to his contact network."
      • Better?
    • "Abdi-Badawzi had sent Swain to sell Saadoon-Kauldi the ship precisely for that reason: The Twi'lek wanted an important, nearby ally supporting him, because he would then obtain greater influence and could expand the borders of his criminal empire to areas where Saadoon-Kauldi could protect him." Please mention this earlier, when you introduce Swain and the ship to begin with.
      • Better?
        • Okay, but we're still missing out on the reason Abdi-Badawzi sent Swain to sell Kauldi the ship—that he wanted Kauldi nearby. Please reorder so that this is clear. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 18:31, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
    • Is there an article for the Socorran Navy? If not, please create and link.
      • Done.
    • "As Saadoon-Kauldi became a public figure in the Socorran system, several rumors about him appeared. People said that Saadoon-Kauldi had been kidnapped from Arapia and transported as a slave, something that made him sympathetic to Socorran eyes. There were similar rumors about Abdi-Badawzi." This seems rather out of place. Also, why is it important that such rumors were formed about Abdi-Badawzi? And (in-universe) "people" typically refers humans; unless you only mean to refer to humans, please use something like "beings" or "inhabitants of Socorro"
      • Importance: Added sentence to mention that Socorrans knew him. Abdi rumors: Rmvd. People: Changed by locals.
    • Why is there so much information on Ethra Brewery in the 4th paragraph of the "Life in Socorro" section? How is this information relevant to Saadoon-Kauldi's article?
      • Rmvd.
    • "When talking to others, Saadoon-Kauldi used his native Kadri'Ra language and required a translator, commonly his indentured servant Guzald." This is very randomly placed, and does not follow the previous sentence or even the section in which it is placed at all. Why not just put this in the P&T?
      • Rmvd, as it's already in P&T
    • Random placement for this paragraph as well; it simply does not follow the previous paragraphs: "Saadoon-Kauldi was respected among criminals, and sometimes admired as if he were a King. The Hutts, who were as long-lived as the Kadri'Ra, were known to have good opinion of Saadoon-Kauldi. Saadoon-Kauldi had no enemies among the criminals, except for the slavers, and was well regarded even by certain law enforcement agencies."
      • Moved to P&T. Better?
    • Could the last section of the bio be broken up into two sections perhaps? It is far longer than any of the previous sections.
      • Better?
    • "Some Socorrans believed that, when that happened, Saadoon-Kauldi would go to the frozen surface of Neftali, enter some cave and vanish from public view." How is this relevant?
      • Rmvd.
    • "nineteen-year-old promise of piracy" What do you mean "promise of piracy?"
      • Changed.
    • Final paragraph of the bio: "unfortunately" is POV.
      • Rmvd.
    • "The Black Bha'lir jumped to help these people, as they were members of the Bha'lir." "Jumped" is colloquial.
      • Changed.
    • Will continue with the P&T once these are taken care of. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 02:19, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
  5. The Grand Master Continues
    • "Saadoon-Kauldi was said to reward efficient employees with money and favors, and to forgive employees who failed him once." "Was said to?" We're not interested in what others "said." Did he or didn't he?
    • "Many Corellian smugglers living in Socorro wanted to work for him." Any reason why?
    • Why do you wait until the P&T to say that he was Force-sensitive? Also, was he aware of this? Is there any particular reason he was untrained? i.e. did he not desire to be trained? Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 17:07, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
      • Not changed: OS only mentions his F-sensitiveness in RPG stats, not specifying whether he was aware of it or not. Anything beyond untrained F-sensitive would be OR. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:27, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Why did you add "once" here? "He had low technical abilities and was a sub-par pilot.once." Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 16:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • What is Saadoon-Kauldi (organization)? Is this meant to be the same thing as Saadoon-Kauldi's criminal empire? if not, please link it at appropriate places in the article. If it is, then please check the title (is the organization really also called "Saadoon-Kauldi?") and merge the articles and CSD one of them.
      • The text consistently says "Saadoon-Kauldi's criminal empire"; S-K is the person. I say, delete Saadoon-Kauldi (organization) --Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:54, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
        • Please make sure all information is merged; the organization page currently says that its criminal dealings included loansharking and credit laundering, which you do not mention in the criminal empire page or on Saadoon-Kauldi's page. Please verify this, and if it is true, please add it to those two pages. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 18:52, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • The intro is missing plenty of important info from the bio (i.e. barely any mention of his alliance with Abdi-Badawzi, which receives prominent mentions throughout the bio, nor any mention of his support of the Rebel Alliance, etc.) Please make certain that all appropriate topics are covered in the intro
      • Better?
        • Actually, that's a bit too much. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 18:52, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
          • Lol! Let's try. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:37, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
            • This is more reasonably sized, but you still leave out plenty of information that is dominant in the bio. i.e. you don't mention the Merkel, you give no indication as to why he moved to the Socorro system, nor do you give any mention of Paulsen and co, who dominate the whole two final paragraphs of the bio; etc. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 22:50, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
              • Merkel, explicitly checked. Reasons to move to Socorro, already present. Mentions to Paulsen and other allies, checked. Intro not excessively long overall, checked. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:36, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
                • A couple things; first, by reasons to move to Socorro, I meant that it was mainly because of Abdi-Badawzi (again, this receives prominent attention in the bio, but no mention in the intro); second, in the intro, you say that Saadoon-Kauldi offered to lodge Paulsen and his allies, whereas in the body you say he only offered to lodge Ross and and Ransom. Which is correct? Also, please create an article for Izzat, now that the redlink is in the intro. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 20:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
    • "He believed his followers would remember that gesture." Is there any further significance to this? During my copy-edit, I considered adding: "…gesture and would thus show him more loyalty." or something similar; however, as I am unfamiliar with the material, I didn't, in case the source said otherwise. If the source confirms this or gives any reason why he cared that they would remember the gesture, please add something of the like.
    • "The Twi'lek then discovered that Saadoon-Kauldi was worried about the Empire's attempts against the Kadri'Ra's freedom and decided to take measures." Decided to take measures to do what?
    • "other unwanted situations" "Unwanted" is possibly POV. Also, like what? What other types of situations?
    • How was the Galactic Empire "directly responsible of the dwindling number of Kadri'Ra in Arapia?
    • In the first paragraph of the "Tensions with the Galactic Empire" section, you say that he joined the Rebel Alliance "around this time," with around this time referring to the previously-stated date of circa 10 BBY. However, the Alliance wasn't formed until 2 BBY. Please adjust the date accordingly (i.e. say something along the lines of "sometime after 2 BBY"). But remember to source this to a source that states when the Alliance was formed.
      • Added - but he still discovered the Imperial-caused holocaust in 10 BBY per Black Sands. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:54, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • "pirate Drake Paulsen lost his father and mentor Kaine Paulsen" Do you mean Kaine Paulsen died? If so, please state so explicitly, and maybe even give a bit of context as to how he died.
    • How was Izzat "treacherous?"
    • Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 21:24, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • In the intro you currently say that he moved to the Socorro system, and then became allied with Abdi-Badawzi, but this conflicts the chronology presented in the bio. Please check which is correct.
    • You have 3 conflicing statements. In the intro you say that the Empire was acting against the Kadri'Ra, and was trying to destroy the Kadri'Ra culture; in the bio you only say that they were responsible for the dwindling number of Kadri-Ra (you don't even imply whether the Empire is intending to be responsible for this or not); and in the P/T you say the Empire was specifically trying to wipe out the Kadri'Ra language.
      • Changed: Both intro and bio mention Empire against culture and after Arapia holocaust. P/T does not mention the later, because it is not relevant in that section, I think. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 13:23, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
        • "Discreting" isn't a word. Also, now you say that they promoted the holocaust of the Kadri'Ra, which changes the meaning of what you had previously stated. Before, you said that they were responsible for it, but nothing more was specified, now what you say implies that the Empire actually sponsored some other faction to eradicate the Kadri'Ra. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 16:55, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
          • "Discreting" typo fixed. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 17:23, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
          • The Empire "sponsoring a holocaust" and "promoted the decimation"; used as synonyms as per Thesaurus. Empire is "responsible of several activities against the K'R", including sponsoring their holocaust and actively discrediting their culture. I think the current text is consistent in that. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 17:23, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
            • Yes they're synonyms, but that doesn't mean they can always be used interchangeably. To say that they "sponsored a holocaust" means that they supplied funds or otherwise endorsed the eradication of the Kadri'Ra, but did not actually directly eradicate the species themselves. To say that they "promoted the decimation" of the Kadri'Ra means that the Empire in some way—either by funds, propaganda, using their own military forces, or in any other possible way—advocated the destruction of the Kadri'Ra. And you've already said in response to an earlier objection that the source gives no more information on how the Empire opposed the Kadri'Ra, so to say specifically that they "sponsored it" would be OR. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 17:33, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
              • In my previous response I meant beyond that. OS p88: "[Kauldi] deeply grieves the holocaust sponsored by the Empire that is consuming his species", but nothing more. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 06:34, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
                • Then you were incorrect in response to my objection, which asked for any more information on their opposition of the Kadri'Ra: you said the OS gave no further information. Please be more careful in your responses in the future. Either way, I still don't see how this indicates that the Empire was specifically targeting the Kadri'Ra culture as well. Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 19:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
                  • References to "culture" removed; Empire only goes after language after "The language of the Kadri'Ra has been long forgotten as the 'indigent dialect of an intellectually inferior species' (at least according to the Imperials writing the textbooks).". --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:40, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
    • In the intro you call Saylor Marjan a "local criminal," but this is unspecified in the bio. Remember, there should be nothing in the intro that is not covered in the article body.
    • Why does Marjan in particular receive mention in the intro? Is he really that important? In the bio, he seems no more important than Ancher or Oxsor.
    • "but several other underworld factions did the same, including Abdi-Badawzi, Jabba Desilijic Tiure's criminal empire, and Black Sun." Here you name two factions and one being. Please try to be consistent. Was Abdi-Badawzi his own faction, by himself? Jonjedigrandmaster Jedi symbol (We seed the stars) 18:07, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
  6. Time to get this moving
    • Please try to make your paragraph size more uniformly larger. While this is purely aesthetic, having a ton of two- or three-sentence paragraphs throughout the article is not very appealing.
    • "and once those slaves had become his most powerful ally in sheer numbers": plurality isn't matching up here; please clarify.
    • "Life in Socorro": this implies that he lived in the planet. Please clarify.
    • "Saadoon-Kauldi contacted with another local criminal group": this isn't an existing English idiom, and I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Do you mean that he made contact with another group?
      • Better? --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
        • As a note for future reference, it's "made contact with", not "made contacted with." That simply doesn't work. CC7567 (talk) 08:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • As a note (not an objection), "allied" is a transitive verb and therefore needs a direct object; saying that "he allied with" is not grammatically correct, while "he allied himself with" is. Please try to keep this in mind in the future.
      • Checked; apparently you got all the instances of this, ty. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • "Understanding the burden of his people": how so? This doesn't quite seem to be the right word choice; if you're talking about the species' hardships, that might be better to use.
      • Better?
    • Can his Force-sensitivity be mentioned in the intro and body? Making it exclusive to the P&T isn't the right way to go here; it's relevant to the rest of the article too.
      • Mentioned. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
        • Please do so in the body somewhere as well. It's best to be consistent and not leave information like this in only certain parts of the article. CC7567 (talk) 08:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • Is it "crime lord" or "crimelord"? Please be consistent throughout the article.
      • The article is crime lord, but for some reason the category is Crimelords. Text changed to crime lords. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • Fairly clean otherwise. CC7567 (talk) 01:23, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Good article by AgriCorps 23:52, May 3, 2010 (UTC)