Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Porg

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Porg

  • Nominated by: Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 16:39, March 20, 2015 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: Been awhile since a GAnom. This is Porg, another poster child for Families Rallying Against Katarn. See comments.

(3 ACs/4 Users/7 Total)

Support

  1. 501st dogma(talk) 01:14, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
  2. Sorry, thought I had struck and voted already! ^^' Manoof (talk) 10:19, May 4, 2015 (UTC)
  3. Ayrehead02 (talk) 09:45, July 16, 2015 (UTC)
  4. - AV-6R7 (talk) 02:05, July 27, 2015 (UTC)
  5. ACvote Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 00:12, August 16, 2015 (UTC)
  6. ACvote Exiled Jedi (talk) 22:59, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
  7. ACvote IFYLOFD (Talk) 03:36, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

Object

501st
  • Intro: " the droid information broker hired Porg ..." There is only one true droid information broker..... he is so infamous he goes by no name.....
    • Wow. I can't believe I missed that. The Droid With No Name has since been named in that sentence. Damn, what an oversight on my part. I'm gonna cry in a corner now. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:21, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
  • You can't source the date in the infobox just to ERC, as that does not mention him dying. You'll need a double reference here, one from the source and one from ERC (i.e [1][2])
    • I think you mean the TNEC? So it should look like: 5 ABY,[RA][NEC] Nar Shaddaa[RA]? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:21, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
      • You know you are using ERC to source a lot when... 501st dogma(talk) 02:38, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
  • "...lest Katarn agree to a demand of the droid's." Wait, the droid info broker of no name doesn't want Katarn agreeing with his demand? That doesn't make sense given the following sentence.
    • Am I using 'lest' wrong? 8t88 does want Katarn to decode the disc, but if Katarn doesn't, he gets killed. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:21, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
      • It should be "lest Katarn not agree." 8t88's is planning for contingencies here.
        • I changed it, but somehow I'm still not making the proper connections to understand this. I scratching my head until it bleeds. Wouldn't it be like "8t88 will double cross Katarn if Katarn does not do 8t88's command?" --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:00, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
  • "Porg chose a poor moment to rejoin the fight, and was killed when he got up into crossfire." Waking up and seating up when in sewage is pretty involuntary, so I don't think this tells us much about his character, and can be cut.
  • In the future, note that Sources should just have TCSWE linked, and not the CSWECite, as that is intended for use in referencing. 501st dogma(talk) 02:02, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
  • You're going to have to reload your infobox. 501st dogma(talk) 20:16, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
Manoof
  • "former Rebel Alliance affiliated agent Kyle Katarn" and later "the former agent." both should be clarified—are you saying he used to be a rebel alliance, used to be an agent, used to be an RL agent? The second part makes it seem he is no longer an agent at all, but could also be construed that you are using it as former/latter. Manoof (talk) 08:19, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
    • Sorry, it seems it's bit inconsistent. The novella, as we know, is called Rebel Agent. At the end of Soldier of the Empire and throughout Dark Forces, Kyle is a Rebel Alliance Agent/Mercenary (Again, inconsistent terminology from both the games and the book). In Rebel Agent, it seems to imply (Or even state, think), that Kyle really is no longer affiliated on a technical level, but Mon Mothma still keeps tabs on him. The Nar Shaddaa mission is also mentioned in the audio drama as being a personal mission on the New Republic's time. I think the book even says he is a "former agent," yet still switched between referring to him as either an agent or a rebel (Cuz Rebel Agent, get it?). Due to the fact that Kyle isn't actually working on the behalf of the New Republic on the Dark Jedi matter (According to the novella, game, and audio drama; Mothma pretty much tells Jan Ors to let Kyle do whatever the hell he wants while the NR goes to mess with non Valley of the Jedi related things. Note that Mon, Luke, and Leia discuss getting involved, but then they decide to just let and Kyle and Jan blow sh*t up). So, uh, um... Where was I going... Oh, yah—I refer to Kyle as a former agent during this time as he isn't working for the New Republic technically, and if I refer to him as an agent otherwise, it's just so I don't have to keep calling him Katarn every-time (And to a lesser extent, because the book does it). I hope that clarifies. Or maybe it muddles it up further. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 17:54, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
      • Definitely muggled. I mean muddled :P Maybe get rid of the word "affiliated", it'll flow better. Manoof (talk) 07:42, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
  • Not sure what you mean by "less Katarn not agree to a demand of the droid's". Should less be lest, does this need to be reworded? Manoof (talk) 08:19, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
    • That's supposed to be lest, and it's been changed. It's a leftover from one of my objections. 501st dogma(talk) 16:28, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
  • Please combine the sentences "However, predicting that Katarn may not comply, 8t88 hired a variety of bounty hunters and mercenaries to serve as backup. 8t88 hired Porg, among others." Manoof (talk) 08:19, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
  • It seems like Kyle intentionally shot 8t88's arm off. Was he trying to stop the droid or kill him? Manoof (talk) 08:19, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
    • In the game and novella, Kyle just sort of starts shooting at him, and apparently gets lucky by shooting the arm the disc was carrying. My guess is that he was actively trying to kill, though in the audio drama 8t88 seems to go "Nanana! You can't get me!" and Kyle non-chalantly shoots his arm off, seemingly on purpose, as opposed to a random barrage of fire. Either way, since shooting 88's arm off had little to do with Porg, I wasn't/am not sure if the detail really matters. I figured that what we need to know is that either way, Kyle shot the droid's arm off and went after it, as it carried the disc. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 17:54, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
      • Maybe mention they got in a shootout or something to make it clear Kyle didn't track him down and shoot his arm off. Manoof (talk) 07:42, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
  • I swapped your appearances—they should be in IU chronological order. Since he appeared in both sources (rather than mentioned), the novella, which had the 1st tag, would be first. I MAY be incorrect with this, but that is my interpretation from the Layout Guide—Appearances. Manoof (talk) 08:19, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
    • I'll double check, but I believe the reason for this was that the audio drama actually begins before the novella does. If I'm not mistaken, whatever has the earlier start date goes first. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 17:37, April 7, 2015 (UTC)
      • Ah ok, that would be correct if that's the case. 1st tag would go on the first published. Both articles say they were published on the same day, if that is the case I'd prefer it on the appearance which occurs 1st chronologically. Manoof (talk) 07:42, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
        • I didn't notice those dates, actually. In that case, I think it goes down as {{1st| Simultaneously with etc...}}. I find it odd they would have the same day release, but maybe it isn't. I think I'll dig that up, if possible. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 15:15, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
          • That sounds like a grand plan! I await your results on the investigation! :D Manoof (talk) 07:43, April 10, 2015 (UTC)
            • So. the Dark Horse site lists the publications dates for all of the novellas, both in Hardcover and Softcover formats. Naturally, we'll go with the Hardcover date as it was first. Unfortunately, the Publisher for the audio dramas, HighBridge Audio, only lists the pub date of the Dark Forces: The Collector's Trilogy audio drama (All three audio dramas) as 8/18/1998. The individual CDs have the original publishing years printed on them (Soldier of the Empire - 1997; Rebel Agent - 1998; etc). The website does not list the individual release dates, however, and as such the CD's don't have the exact dates, either. So I got one date, and I'll keep searching for the individual dates, as now I'm curious. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:45, April 15, 2015 (UTC)
              • Hmmm ok. And did the audio drama start at an earlier IU time than the novella? It could render this issue moot :P Manoof (talk) 05:14, April 15, 2015 (UTC)
                • The audio drama starts earlier, in universe. (The novella starts with Morgan Katarn finding the planet Ruusan. The audio drama begins with an Imperial attack that led Katarn and others to Ruusan) --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 17:39, April 15, 2015 (UTC)
  • After emailing High Bridge, I got a list of published works from them, both in and out of print. Unfortunately, the list I was provided only contained a date for the Collector's Trilogy. I't s possible that I was provided a list of products released on CD, as opposed to anything released on a tape (As that's how the individual dramas were released). --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 20:14, April 24, 2015 (UTC)
Ayrehead
  • What exactly is the relationship between the Aqualish and Porg? In the intro you say they're partners but in the body it sounds more like he's a separate hunter who walks in on the fight and joins in. Ayrehead02 (talk) 10:06, July 1, 2015 (UTC)
    • They seem to know each other (as evidence of the body quote), but I'm using 'partners' a bit loosely. They may have not been partners in the literal sense, but they were both gunning for Katarn. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 19:46, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
Toprawa
  • Does the source actually state that Porg "considered himself an honorable warrior," or is this something you're extrapolating from the dialogue between he and Katarn? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 20:30, July 23, 2015 (UTC)
    • It seems I did. The text itself doesn't actually mention anything about honor, and conversely the audio drama doesn't bring up the word warrior. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:21, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
      • It's been my experience in the several nominations of yours that I've reviewed that this is something that you are especially prone to. You have a bad habit of extrapolating source material to create claims that aren't supported by the text. By far, the worst example of this I've come across is Dud Bolt. That article is just riddled top to bottom with poor and incorrect extrapolation of source material. Although this is ancillary to Porg, I bring it up here since we're on the subject. If you ever have plans to retry your hand at Dud Bolt, I don't think it would be unfair to suggest to you that you go back and rewrite nearly that entire article with a new eye for this type of extrapolation. Rule of thumb here: Unless a source explicitly says something, you shouldn't be saying it yourself. Now that being said, do the sources actually say that Porg considered himself a warrior or that he was proud of the manner in which he wielded his ax? This sounds suspect to me as well. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 17:29, July 27, 2015 (UTC)
        • "The Trandoshan was proud of the manner in which he had disarmed his opponent on the upswing [...] Now, that's the way of the warrior!" Page 56. I apologize for that. It usually looks and sound accurate when I write it, and then I think nothing of it later until it's pointed out, I look at it again, and realize I was wrong the first time. So I don't know. I seem to percieve things incorrectly. Something I still have to work on, it seems. I didn't realize it was such a problem in Dud Bolt, though. It'll probably have to be redone, indeed. Looking at this, I realize the "Warrior" phrase seems sort of indirect. But I'm not sure. However, the phrase comes from Porg's point of view. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:54, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
          • Ok, I would suggest wording it something along the lines of "Porg was proud of the manner in which he wielded his ax to disarm Katarn (or whoever it is, I can't remember), a feat he considered to be exemplary of a warrior." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 03:15, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
  • I've broken the paragraphs down into four smaller blocks, which allows us to enlarge the image. I would suggest subdividing the Biography into two subsections and adding in additional quotes if available. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 17:20, August 6, 2015 (UTC)
    • I'll comment that I do not think that the sections are necessary in a general sense, but I see that in a utility sense it does stop the image from bleeding into the next section. That's useful. I also modified two quotes. How does that look? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 19:50, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
      • Making room for the image is one advantage of subsectioning, but it's not the only reason for doing so. I probably would have made this objection even if there wasn't an image there. The utilitarian purpose here is to just make our articles as easy to read and navigate for the reader as possible, and you do that by making paragraphs smaller and dividing long blocks of text into smaller subsections. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
  • This sentence does not make it clear in which source, the audio drama or the novella, this takes place in. And never, ever, ever use contractions in formal writing. Please...get rid of that. "Another difference between the drama and the novella is that Katarn doesn't use 8t88's arm against Porg, and only recovers it after defeating the bounty hunter." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
    • This shoiuld make it much clearer. Funny, I remember writing and subsequently removing a contraction elsewhere. That one somehow slipped by. I'm aware of the rule, but it slipped by. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 21:49, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Comments

Most of the quotes come from the Dark Forces: Rebel Agent audio drama, which means that the punctuation is all guesswork, based on a character's pausing and voice inflections. Also, I've added The Essential Reader's Companion as a source under a suggestion I had from Unidentified Gran (Rimmer's Rest cantina), which mentions that 8t88 had hired bounty hunters. This article is roughly 10 or so words under Featured Article eligibility, so if it goes over it will have to be moved, most likely. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 16:39, March 20, 2015 (UTC)

I also noticed there's several other article with similar sounding names to this one, like Porgo Goo and Porgrak. Would any kind of disambiguation be necessary for either this nomination or just in general? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:02, June 7, 2015 (UTC)