- The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.
Cabbel
- Nominated by: Hanzo Hasashi 17:20, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Nomination comments: Then one foggy Christmas Eve, Rebel ships came into our sector.
(3 ACs/2 Users/5 Total)
Support
- Clone Commander Lee Talk 10:58, December 25, 2011 (UTC)
Good job. The info is presented efficiently and effectively. Menkooroo 05:57, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
--Cal Jedi
(Personal Comm Channel) 04:24, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:58, February 8, 2012 (UTC)- Looks good.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 03:21, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
Object
Toprawa
Preliminary objection. Have you checked the ESB PhotoComic, radio drama, radio drama script, and Manga adaptation?Toprawa and Ralltiir 03:53, December 30, 2011 (UTC)- Sorry to interject --- I checked 'em. He's in the manga, but the photocomic and radio drama skip over Lennox's scene. Menkooroo 03:56, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I should point out, however, that the RD script is much different from the finalized RD. There are many lines and huge chunks of scenes that appear in the script that were cut out from the RD, so he may still be in there. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:48, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Updated with info from the RD script. FWIW, Cabbel and Lennox don't appear, however it does describe the Tyrant being disabled from the Alliance's point of view. Hanzo Hasashi 05:48, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I would actually recommend checking to see if that information can be referenced to the general RD, which is the more canon-binding source. We really only use the script if it includes exclusive, non-contradicting material. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:56, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Is indeed in the RD, sourcing changed. Hanzo Hasashi 05:10, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
- I would actually recommend checking to see if that information can be referenced to the general RD, which is the more canon-binding source. We really only use the script if it includes exclusive, non-contradicting material. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:56, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Updated with info from the RD script. FWIW, Cabbel and Lennox don't appear, however it does describe the Tyrant being disabled from the Alliance's point of view. Hanzo Hasashi 05:48, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I should point out, however, that the RD script is much different from the finalized RD. There are many lines and huge chunks of scenes that appear in the script that were cut out from the RD, so he may still be in there. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:48, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry to interject --- I checked 'em. He's in the manga, but the photocomic and radio drama skip over Lennox's scene. Menkooroo 03:56, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
I think the intro would benefit from some brief mention that Cabbel and the Tyrant were attached to Vader's Death Squadron.Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:37, January 9, 2012 (UTC)- Taken care of. Hanzo Hasashi 02:42, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Still not exactly what I'm looking for. The emphasis should be on demonstrating that Cabbel's assignment to the Tyrant was an elite one, as he basically served more or less directly under Darth Vader of all people. We know that the Tyrant was a member of Death Squadron since its formation (and therefore predated Cabbel's assignment to it), so this reference should accompany the intro's original mention of the Star Destroyer. To give you a specific idea of what I'm looking for, this is how I would write this: "During that year, Cabbel served as the first officer of the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer Tyrant, attached to the Dark Lord Darth Vader's Imperial Death Squadron, under the command of Captain Xamuel Lennox." Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:40, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
- I think I got it now. Hanzo Hasashi 20:40, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Still not exactly what I'm looking for. The emphasis should be on demonstrating that Cabbel's assignment to the Tyrant was an elite one, as he basically served more or less directly under Darth Vader of all people. We know that the Tyrant was a member of Death Squadron since its formation (and therefore predated Cabbel's assignment to it), so this reference should accompany the intro's original mention of the Star Destroyer. To give you a specific idea of what I'm looking for, this is how I would write this: "During that year, Cabbel served as the first officer of the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer Tyrant, attached to the Dark Lord Darth Vader's Imperial Death Squadron, under the command of Captain Xamuel Lennox." Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:40, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Taken care of. Hanzo Hasashi 02:42, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
There is some pre-Hoth Tyrant info that I think deserves a mention within this article, as we can indirectly imply that Cabbel was part of the Star Destroyer's duties. Firstly, we know that more than one of Death Squadron's Star Destroyers regularly deployed probe droids throughout the galaxy in search of the Rebel base. Although there is no canonical appearance of the Tyrant actually doing this, I think the article can make a general blanket statement stating that the squadron's Star Destroyers dispatched probe droids prior to Hoth. This can most likely be sourced to the Atlas.Secondly, the Atlas actually states where Death Squadron was upon the probe's discovery of Echo Base and details their hyperspace journey to reach Hoth. It's a safe assumption that Cabbel was aboard the Tyrant for these events. The last paragraph in this section may be a good reference point for you.Toprawa and Ralltiir 06:04, January 11, 2012 (UTC)- Done for both. Hanzo Hasashi 18:30, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Changes are looking pretty good. Before I go through them entirely, the first paragraph of the Bio section will need an independent source for the Tyrant's inclusion in Death Squadron. There are a couple options available that should be easy enough to find by looking around through some related articles. Let me know if you need help, though. Toprawa and Ralltiir 18:56, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I chose Who's Who, based on the sourcing I saw for Lennox. Hanzo Hasashi 19:10, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Changed to Tyrant CCG card. Hanzo Hasashi 19:14, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Good. But I'm still seeing fairly significant sourcing problems within that paragraph. Firstly, this may be sort of nitpicky, but the article should really source the claim that the Tyrant is an ISD-I, which isn't readily evident by any means either from the film or the CCG card. I believe Behind the Magic may have been the one to state it was a refitted ISD-I, but you should look into that. Additionally, Cabbel's CCG card does not state that the Tyrant was commanded by Lennox. That will also require an independent source. Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:21, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Done. As with the official classifications, I've seen quality articles that don't properly source those. Hanzo Hasashi 19:28, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I've just gotten rid of the official titles, now simply pipelinked. Hanzo Hasashi 19:31, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't change the need to still properly cite the information. ISD-I is still pipelinked, and therefore still being asserted, in the article. The Tyrant is an ISD-I, you just need to be able to find the source that supports this. And if we can support this, there's no reason not to state outright its designation, as you had originally done. Like I said, I believe the info comes from Behind the Magic. You should look into that. And just because another status article does something doesn't mean it's right or that all subsequent articles should follow its lead. In cases like this, I think it really comes down to what we can determine from the duck test. For example, we can say C-3PO was a protocol droid without needing a special source to support the fact that he's a protocol droid because we can determine this simply by looking at him in the film. But we cannot determine that the Tyrant is an ISD-I just from looking at it, thus the need for an independent source. You should revert your latest change and look into BTM to support the Tyrant's designation. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:23, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Reverted, and awaiting confirmation. As for the thing I bring up, does the same apply for names of individuals, ships, places etc.? As an example Unidentified balding Human (Chalmun's Spaceport Cantina) refers to Cornelius Evazan by his full name, whilst Delevar sources the names of Avarik and Elsek. Hanzo Hasashi 20:44, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I guess it really depends on how technically precise you want to be about sourcing. One would not be incorrect in sourcing these examples, but we sort of almost treat it as self-sourcing sometimes and just overlook the need to source that kind of thing. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:03, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Nope, not in Behind the Magic. Have started a KB forum about this. I hope I get responses. Hanzo Hasashi 23:23, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks to some evidence provided by Culator, we have enough visual data to assert that the Tyrant is an ISD-I. Long story short, as he notes in that KB forum, we can see from visual comparisons that the model used for the ship in the film is that used for canonically-verified ISD-Is, while there is another model used for all canonically-verified ISD-IIs. This can all be explained in a neat reference note with some IU and OOU pictures for illustrative purposes. I can try and write this up for you when I feel fresher, hopefully tomorrow. Toprawa and Ralltiir 05:22, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- That ref note I placed in the Tyrant article would work for this article, if you feel like using that one. Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Got that. Hanzo Hasashi 20:24, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, good. Going back to the original point of this objection, however, I would still like to see a little bit more in that second paragraph briefly detailing Death Squadron's hyperspace journey to Hoth. I should stress that this should probably be as brief as possible to avoid going off on too much of a tangent. You could probably just mention the fact that they traveled through a series of hyperspace jumps from Qeimat to Hoth, which can be sourced to the Atlas. My reasoning being that as the lieutenant of the ship, I think we can safely assume, and therefore indirectly assert, that Cabbel supervised the day-to-day business of this journey. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Written.
- Ok, good. Going back to the original point of this objection, however, I would still like to see a little bit more in that second paragraph briefly detailing Death Squadron's hyperspace journey to Hoth. I should stress that this should probably be as brief as possible to avoid going off on too much of a tangent. You could probably just mention the fact that they traveled through a series of hyperspace jumps from Qeimat to Hoth, which can be sourced to the Atlas. My reasoning being that as the lieutenant of the ship, I think we can safely assume, and therefore indirectly assert, that Cabbel supervised the day-to-day business of this journey. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Got that. Hanzo Hasashi 20:24, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Nope, not in Behind the Magic. Have started a KB forum about this. I hope I get responses. Hanzo Hasashi 23:23, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I guess it really depends on how technically precise you want to be about sourcing. One would not be incorrect in sourcing these examples, but we sort of almost treat it as self-sourcing sometimes and just overlook the need to source that kind of thing. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:03, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Reverted, and awaiting confirmation. As for the thing I bring up, does the same apply for names of individuals, ships, places etc.? As an example Unidentified balding Human (Chalmun's Spaceport Cantina) refers to Cornelius Evazan by his full name, whilst Delevar sources the names of Avarik and Elsek. Hanzo Hasashi 20:44, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't change the need to still properly cite the information. ISD-I is still pipelinked, and therefore still being asserted, in the article. The Tyrant is an ISD-I, you just need to be able to find the source that supports this. And if we can support this, there's no reason not to state outright its designation, as you had originally done. Like I said, I believe the info comes from Behind the Magic. You should look into that. And just because another status article does something doesn't mean it's right or that all subsequent articles should follow its lead. In cases like this, I think it really comes down to what we can determine from the duck test. For example, we can say C-3PO was a protocol droid without needing a special source to support the fact that he's a protocol droid because we can determine this simply by looking at him in the film. But we cannot determine that the Tyrant is an ISD-I just from looking at it, thus the need for an independent source. You should revert your latest change and look into BTM to support the Tyrant's designation. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:23, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I've just gotten rid of the official titles, now simply pipelinked. Hanzo Hasashi 19:31, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Done. As with the official classifications, I've seen quality articles that don't properly source those. Hanzo Hasashi 19:28, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Good. But I'm still seeing fairly significant sourcing problems within that paragraph. Firstly, this may be sort of nitpicky, but the article should really source the claim that the Tyrant is an ISD-I, which isn't readily evident by any means either from the film or the CCG card. I believe Behind the Magic may have been the one to state it was a refitted ISD-I, but you should look into that. Additionally, Cabbel's CCG card does not state that the Tyrant was commanded by Lennox. That will also require an independent source. Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:21, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Changed to Tyrant CCG card. Hanzo Hasashi 19:14, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I chose Who's Who, based on the sourcing I saw for Lennox. Hanzo Hasashi 19:10, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Changes are looking pretty good. Before I go through them entirely, the first paragraph of the Bio section will need an independent source for the Tyrant's inclusion in Death Squadron. There are a couple options available that should be easy enough to find by looking around through some related articles. Let me know if you need help, though. Toprawa and Ralltiir 18:56, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Done for both. Hanzo Hasashi 18:30, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
I would request that the "possible" Star Wars: X-wing appearance, which is tantamount to outright speculation, be removed from the Appearances list. Leaving the BTS explanation is all that needs to be done.- Done. Guess the same should be done with Lennox.
- Agreed. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Done. Guess the same should be done with Lennox.
If the character's appearance in Jedi Knight II is not in the game's storyline, then it's non-canonical and requires {{Nc}}- I originally changed that during the summer, but I see your point.
Article requires a {{1st}} and {{1stID}} tag.- How'd I miss that?
Cabbel is possibly mentioned in SWE as well, though he may not have an individual entry. Please check.- Apparently his SWE info is identical to CSWE, so I added to sources, and changed the citation in the personality and traits.
- I think it would be preferential to use the CSWE reference, since it's the more recent source. Alternatively, you could just as easily use both. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, changed back.
- I think it would be preferential to use the CSWE reference, since it's the more recent source. Alternatively, you could just as easily use both. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently his SWE info is identical to CSWE, so I added to sources, and changed the citation in the personality and traits.
Cabbel's name is most likely not mentioned directly in Annotated Screenplays, which would therefore require an {{Imo}}.- But that source contains the script, where Cabbel has a line. I think that counts as more than an indirect mention.
- That's not typically how we've treated it. I feel you may be thinking of instances where a subject is indirectly mentioned and also pictured, in which case we normally just treat that as a full mention. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- From the script:
- But that source contains the script, where Cabbel has a line. I think that counts as more than an indirect mention.
"CONTROLLER (Cabbel): Sir, Rebel ships are coming into our sector." I would think that warrants as more than an indirect mention. Hanzo Hasashi 22:47, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Changed. Hanzo Hasashi 19:18, February 5, 2012 (UTC)
Likewise, please ensure that his name is mentioned directly in BTM.Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC)- I would believe the script with his line alone counts as more than an indirect mention. Hanzo Hasashi 22:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- From SavageBob's reply, yes he is specifically mentioned by name as is. Hanzo Hasashi 22:32, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Star Wars Encyclopedia, page 39: "Cabbel, Lieutenant A graduate of the Officer's Candidate School on Carida, he served as first officer of the Imperial Star Destroyer Tyrant. His men described him as efficient, but also very ambitious and ruthless. (CCG)" Not mentioned in the Lennox or Tyrant entries, and not found outside his own entry on a search of an OCR copy. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 22:11, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- I would believe the script with his line alone counts as more than an indirect mention. Hanzo Hasashi 22:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
I'm ok with the article adding some info from the Galaxies trading card thing, but what has been added to the intro regarding this material is way too long for something that doesn't even include Cabbel specifically. I'd like to see this shortened and summarized into a single sentence. Barest essential details only: "Eventually, a shuttle brought captured Rebel General Crix Madine aboard the Star Destroyer. However, the Tyrant was once more hit by the ion cannon's fire, and Madine was rescued by Rebel commandos who boarded the warship. After the Tyrant became functional again, it attempted to recapture Madine by attacking the Champion, the Mon Calamari Star Cruiser evacuating him from Hoth; however the Champion managed to escape from the ship's pursuit."Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:58, February 6, 2012 (UTC)- Check out what I wrote. Hanzo Hasashi 22:22, February 6, 2012 (UTC)
- Better. Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:12, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Check out what I wrote. Hanzo Hasashi 22:22, February 6, 2012 (UTC)
All of this is just too unnecessarily wordy. There's no reason why the Qeimet system needs to be mentioned twice. Try to condense wording as much as possible: "Death Squadron went through a series of hyperspace jumps from the Qeimet to Hoth systems during the search, and were near the Qeimet system when one of the probe droids discovered evidence of the Rebels' base on the planet Hoth"Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:12, February 7, 2012 (UTC)- My edit better? Hanzo Hasashi 04:26, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
Does the game specify what kind of shuttle this was? "...and took him to the Tyrant via a shuttle."- No it doesn't. It does say that the commandos stole a Lambda-class shuttle when they rescued Madine though. Is that detail worth mentioning, or not necessarily? Hanzo Hasashi 00:44, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I decided to add this. Btw can you strike your fourth objection, maybe you overlooked it? Hanzo Hasashi 00:53, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. It does say that the commandos stole a Lambda-class shuttle when they rescued Madine though. Is that detail worth mentioning, or not necessarily? Hanzo Hasashi 00:44, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
If Annotated Screenplays also identifies him as a controller along with BTM, this should be mentioned within this sentence as well for comprehensive purposes: "he film's script, as presented in Star Wars: Behind the Magic, identifies Cabbel as a "Controller."Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:51, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
Exiled Jedi
Although Cabbel is not mentioned in The Price of Victory scenarios, they do say what happened to the Tyrant in the Battle of Hoth after it is disabled. Perhaps you should take a look at the Xamuel Lennox article and see what could be added. I figure that Cabbel would still be onboard during these events.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 22:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Will add, but consider leaving out the mission to Bespin. I think that the passage of time in between the Champion's escape and the Bespin mission would be such that Cabbel might not have been present, whereas the hunt for Madine occurred pretty much right after the first ion cannon blast. Hanzo Hasashi 20:04, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Updated. As I said with the Bespin part, it is my thinking that, given the amount of time that passed, as The Price of Victory does not mention Cabbel during those events, then without confirmation of him being there I left it out. Of course, I would say most likely he was there, given his commanding position, but I think it's still best to not mention. Hanzo Hasashi 20:42, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with your reasoning.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 23:14, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with your reasoning.--Exiled Jedi
- Updated. As I said with the Bespin part, it is my thinking that, given the amount of time that passed, as The Price of Victory does not mention Cabbel during those events, then without confirmation of him being there I left it out. Of course, I would say most likely he was there, given his commanding position, but I think it's still best to not mention. Hanzo Hasashi 20:42, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Will add, but consider leaving out the mission to Bespin. I think that the passage of time in between the Champion's escape and the Bespin mission would be such that Cabbel might not have been present, whereas the hunt for Madine occurred pretty much right after the first ion cannon blast. Hanzo Hasashi 20:04, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
Comments
Approved as a Good article by AgriCorps 03:26, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
- While I am actively working on this and my FA noms now, I know that as the semester progresses, my time here will be limited, and quite frankly I nominated everything during the break hoping they would not still be on the page during the beginning of my semester this week. Anyhow, if in two weeks this nomination still hasn't been passed, can somebody take over? Thanks. Hanzo Hasashi 00:08, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to help see this nom along if it's not passed in time. Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:12, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. Hanzo Hasashi 00:39, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to help see this nom along if it's not passed in time. Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:12, January 11, 2012 (UTC)