Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Unidentified Gran (Rimmer's Rest) (Redux review)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Reduxed Featured article. The result of the discussion was Featured article status kept. Please do not modify the page.

Unidentified Gran (Rimmer's Rest) (Redux review)

(3 Inqs/1 Users/4 Total)

Support

  1. Inqvote Assuming the essays in Tope's objections are handled. Tommy Imperial Emblem Macaroni 18:50, April 28, 2019 (UTC)
  2. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 11:45, April 29, 2019 (UTC)
  3. Inqvote Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 21:17, May 10, 2019 (UTC)
  4. Inqvote Exiled Jedi (talk) 19:29, May 12, 2019 (UTC)

Object

Toprawa
  • I believe the Bio would do well to be divided into two subsections of two paragraphs each. You can add another quote too if available. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 18:17, March 29, 2018 (UTC)
    • Done. I also changed the second hireling from being a Rodian to being a Grave Tusken, based on that hirelings page. The game, afterall, is the only source that gives us an image of the character, so I think we should go off that as opposed to the novella calling him a Rodian (And none of the BG aliens in that illustration look anything close to a Rodian, so we can't say he's there, either). I don't know if any of this matters at all. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 22:56, April 9, 2018 (UTC)
      • Also, re-listening to the audio drama, 8t88 does actually call both of these guys "goons." Didn't recognize this clearly before, so I think the casting call can be accurately made based on that. The Gran is the first to speak. I want to know if you have an opinion on this before I do anything. I know what's sound to me can be (And often has been) faulty.--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 23:02, April 9, 2018 (UTC)
        • Are you referring to the BTS, as in asserting that this Gran character is Goon 1 and therefore voiced by Tom Keith? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 19:37, April 23, 2018 (UTC)
          • Yes. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 18:47, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
            • Well, you've raised like four different issues in this single objection thread (not advisable). Firstly, I'm fine with calling the second hireling a Grave Tusken. I believe this should be treated like a film, in that the video game takes canonical precedence over its adaptations. And since you raised this issue in this thread, I'm extending this objection to cover this: These two sentences are mutually exclusive: "The voice talent behind the character is unclear, however. Credited as "Goon 1," per 8t88's dialogue, the Gran was voiced by Tom Keith." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 18:51, September 9, 2018 (UTC)
              • Given that enough evidence concludes Tom Keith as the voice talent, that line seems to be an oversight. Given that same line of thought, there are two bounty hunters listed in Dark Forces II's cast (Daniel Bloom and Dylan Haggerty), which given the reuse of sound effects from Dark Forces and the separate casting of the Rodian voice actor, I'm inclined to believe these are the physical actors from that cutscene. I think in this case it might be less clear, as the editing of the scene has the two showing up at about the same time, though given the Gran is the only one seen clearly, I'm guessing he'd be the 1st Bounty Hunter? I guess raising more issues than what was brought up originally could be poor form, but I guess I just want to be accurate on this one (All for a nameless alien). Sorry about that. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:05, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
                • I wouldn't go so far as to assume either actor is necessarily the Gran, since they're presumably listed in the credits alphabetically, not by who shows up first. If you feel strongly that these are the two from that scene, you could just mention that fact, while leaving the obvious implication that one of them is this Gran. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:10, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
                  • They're credited as Bounty Hunter 1 and Bounty Hunter 2 (And as an aside, The Rodian voice is actually just credited as Greedo, heh). Also I was looking at the Wook page, and as it happens the actual game credits BH1 as Dan Bloom, whatever that means. However, I mentioned both names now as an ambiguity, and will fill out the redlinks. I don't know where Daniel came from, so I'll just Dan since I have the game materials in front of me.--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:29, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
                    • Daniel apparently comes from an IMDB page. Not sure what to make of that. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 02:39, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
                      • Naming the article according to how he's credited in the game is ideal. Remember that all OOU articles should have a Bibliography section. This serves the same function as the Sources section in IU articles. List all officially licensed sources that mention the actor's name in the Bibliography. And you need to kill that redlink per FAN rules. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:16, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
                        • Right, I didn't want to make the page until I knew how to name it. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:27, September 15, 2018 (UTC)
                          • You still haven't properly added a Bibliography section to either of those articles. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 15:29, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
                            • Okay, so I looked at some other articles, and so what I'm asking is, is the Bibliography in this case licensed works he appeared in (Like putting Dark Forces II under the section), or would it be a theoretical official website that lists the cast of the game? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 00:23, September 19, 2018 (UTC)
                              • It's any officially licensed source (both Appearances and Sources) that mentions the subject's name. In this case, you should add this to these articles. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:04, September 19, 2018 (UTC)
  • Since you moved the article name for the cantina, this article should be moved to reflect that as well. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:18, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
    • I actually did not move the page and disagree with it being moved. See the Talk Page for that article, where I believe I left a note about it. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:27, September 15, 2018 (UTC)
      • I have responded on the talk page recommending the article be moved to Rimmer's Rest, and I encourage you to do so and update anything in this article accordingly that may need it. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 16:36, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
        • I think the Rimmer's Rest redirect has to be deleted before the page can be moved back, right? I can't delete it, unless I can literally just swap the information on the two pages without breaking anything. I want to ask before I break some coding or something and make a mess. Forget that last part. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 23:05, September 17, 2018 (UTC)
  • It's not a requirement, but it would be nice if you could upload audio clips for the quotes that have corresponding audio files from the game and/or audio drama. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 14:20, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
    • It may not be a requirement but now you can check it off as one, right? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 00:47, April 12, 2019 (UTC)
      • Now that you've done this, you have several issues:
        • Firstly, the quotes need to be accurately transcribed. The "Gran with a grudge" quote doesn't match the audio file. It appears the correct quote is I was a bodyguard looking for a smuggler a few years back. He was running weapons into the Imperial sector until you dumped his operation down a black hole and gave me a laser shot in the leg doing it. Took me three months to heal from that wound, and my leg still hurts sometimes. The bold portions are the parts missing from your quote.
        • Secondly, the audio files need to be edited to match exactly what is being presented in the quote template. Meaning there should not be any extraneous dialogue. In the P/T quote, there is some kind of chuckling sound at the very end of the audio clip that should be edited out. In the "Equipment" section quote, there's an extraneous There it is! line at the end of the audio clip that should be edited out. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 17:32, April 12, 2019 (UTC)
          • I'll upload the edited P&T quote in a bit, but I'm going to extend the quote for the Equipment. My initial thought was too just include the Gran's line, but the other guy talks over him as his line comes to an end, which made isolating just the Gran a bit difficult as to have his entire line would end with the Tusken starting to say "There." The other option was to cut off "Blaster," but I didn't like either option. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 21:41, April 12, 2019 (UTC)
            • Looking better. For these audio drama quotes, is the punctuation you're using strictly your formatting, or are you taking the text from anywhere? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 17:05, April 13, 2019 (UTC)
              • It's mine, trying to punctuate it how it sounds to me. There's no physical script to base it off of. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 16:50, April 14, 2019 (UTC)
  • Does the first subsection quote also appear in the Dark Forces: Rebel Agent novel? Because I'm curious about how you're formatting some of it.
  • I'm curious why you need ref 6 here. Ref 3 seems to work fine: "By the year 5 ABY,[3][6]"
  • If you changed the name of the cantina article, you should also reflect it in this article. The second image caption, for example; and here: "Arriving at Katarn's table at the Rimmer's Rest cantina..."
  • The Biography really doesn't give the impression that 8t88 double-crossed Katarn as the intro claims, rather that he gave Katarn an ultimatum and Katarn chose to do things the hard way. Do any of the sources actually say that 8t88 double-crossed him?
    • The name of the first level is "Double-Cross On Nar Shaddaa." I can reword it in the bio though. 8t88 sets a meeting with Katarn for one thing, then forcibly changes the subject and leaves him to get killed. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:27, September 15, 2018 (UTC)
  • I've rewritten much of the "sound effects" BTS paragraph. Please make sure everything there is copacetic. Also, is this line really necessary? It seems kind of trivial. Do we even know that Gran mouths move? "Due to the costume's mask, the Gran's mouth does not move when he speaks."
    • Gran mouths move since we saw them do so in the Prequels (Aks Moe and Ask Aak). I wanted to say this without going as far as to say "Due to budget limitations" or "Due to a slip on mask without any obvious animatronic parts" etc... I can remove it though if you don't think it's necessary. It's not even a glitch per say or a technical mistake, it's just that the live action cutscenes were obviously on a lower budget than the game itself. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:27, September 15, 2018 (UTC)
      • I would suggest removing it in the absence of any information like that. It would be different, of course, if we had a making-of book or something that mentioned this outright, but otherwise it's kind of just our own invention. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:10, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
  • The game should take precedence over the novella adaptations in terms of canonicity and inconsistencies, the same way a film takes precedence over its adaptations. Therefore, the game's quote should be used as this article's main quote, not the version from the novella.
    • What I think I suggested in the original FAN but was suggested I do otherwise. But will revert if that doesn't matter anymore. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:27, September 15, 2018 (UTC)
  • You need to source the last sentence of the fourth BTS paragraph (second subsection).
  • After reading the BTS, I think you should add a very brief addition to the final Bio paragraph noting that Katarn left the Gran behind, per what you state that audio drama says.
    • Doesn't "as the latter slipped away, mockingly adding that they should go out for lunch sometime" already sort of say that though? Or do you mean something more direct? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:38, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
      • In that Bio paragraph, you completely disregard the events of the game (namely that the Gran runs out into the bar area and takes up position to attack Katarn, as the BTS explains), but I don't believe the game needs to be mutually exclusive of the novella and audio drama. Can you not work them in together somehow? Like, after Katarn disarms the hirelings, the Gran runs out into the bar area to prepare to attack Katarn, but Katarn then slips away, saying they should go out to lunch sometime? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 16:36, September 19, 2018 (UTC)
        • This where we largely start to get into potentially confusing territory, given story and gameplay segregation. The novella, given it's writing, and the audio drama rather clearly, forgo the encounter in the open bar area entirely. Obviously this is largely done in the non-game sources for condensing the story. Other elements of could be seen as Porg, a Trandoshan in what equates to the game's second Nar Shaddaa level, despite Trandoshans not appearing in the game until the last Sulon level. Obviously, if Dietz had kept all alien bounty hunters on NS to those in the game it would have been rather odd to see him exclusively fight Gran, Rodians, and pigs. The limited alien species is simply a game limitation since they can only afford to create so many models (Which on an unrelated note, is something Mysteries of the Sith fixed to an outstanding degree, actually). Likewise with combat scenarios, there's only so much that can be done with the prose crossover. If I was to write in the Gran fighting Katarn in the bar, I couldn't assume his survival, largely because as a part of gameplay sections in articles, plus the game's own morality system in regards to killing enemies, 100% game completion (As well as the necessary completion for the canon Light Side ending) would require the Gran's death. Not only that, but there's a second gran in the bar, and killing both of them triggers a line of dialogue from the bartender, again furthering such narrative issues that arise from the story in the game's cutscenes, the story in the gameplay, and the adapted story of the novella and audio adaption. Unfortunately, there is little that can be reconciled between the sources in this case. So either we use the game's actual, player dependent gameplay as the go to, or defer to the adaption on the reasoning it's two different sources with the same information, where we could perhaps say that given a 2 Sources vs 1 Source, we could go on a majority ruling as to what event transpired. Or we could go with the game. Differences and different player outcomes can be further detailed in the BtS. I can write whatever you'd think will be the most suitable conclusion for the article's bio. Personally, I like the way it is, with it being more open ended as to whether the Gran died or not, given the circumstance of gameplay/story segregation (Which may contribute to why, perhaps, this was never discussed much beforehand). --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 04:48, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
  • I really don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Can you clarify? "...though it infers the former via a lack of a mention otherwise" Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 15:19, September 13, 2018 (UTC)
    • Eh, just a little blabber, so I'll kill it. Ideally, it meant that the novella gave the impression he was speaking basic since it made no other mention otherwise. Unlike say, how in the audio drama, a Gamorrean's English speech is overlayed pig squealing, to tell the listener that the conversation is being translated for the audience's benefit. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:38, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
      • But he does speak in the novella, I'm presuming? So it's fair to just say that he's speaking Basic there if his dialogue is presented in plain English (which is what Basic is). That paragraph of the BTS should mention that he also speaks Basic in the novella, then. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:09, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
  • Can you explain for me the relationship between the two quotes in the Biography? I'm confused because they both include the bit about taking three months to heal, which leads me to believe these are two versions of the exact same conversation taking place at the same time. Which ultimately means they may not both be usable simultaneously. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 16:12, April 15, 2019 (UTC)
    • They are more or less the same conversation, with the audio simply being longer. Might be why I failed to transpose the audio drama version correctly. I think I have one that can replace the second bio quote if you want, which, now that I'm thinking of it, I'll just go ahead and replace it. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 22:08, April 15, 2019 (UTC)
      • Then again, I'd hate to lose the "trash" line. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 22:32, April 15, 2019 (UTC)
        • I think you actually need to remove the first subsection's quote or replace it with something else. In terms of canon hierarchy, the main novella should take precedence over its audio drama adaptation if events are competing with one another, as appears to be happening here (though, to be honest, I'm really not completely sure what to think, because you can't seem to give me a straight answer one way or another). Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 04:38, April 16, 2019 (UTC)
          • I'm not sure how much straighter of an answer of "They are more or less the same conversation" you want, though yes I've been droning with the majority of my replies. The audio drama adds a number of lines between the two lines from the novella. The drama largely expands everything to be longer. Either the audio drama is an expanded version of the novella, or the novella is a condensed version of the drama. As far as the first subsection quote is concerned, it's the quote that gives all of the character's pre-story backstory. I'm merely asking what you want me to do about it. If you want the first one gone, what I can do is take the second subsection quote and move it up, and then for the second subsection take different quote from the audio where he says something like "You'd look funny with just a smoking stump on your shoulders." Then we can give precedence to the novella's shorter conversation and just treat the drama as spoken prose or something. I like that. Do you like that? I can do that.--Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 01:10, April 17, 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm going to start a new line of objections for the quotes in this article. To get right to the point here, these are the quotes I think you should be using:
    • First subsection: "I was a bodyguard looking for a smuggler a few years back..." Cut it at the part about taking three months to heal so it isn't repetitive with the next subsection's quote.
    • Second subsection: The "Remember me" dialogue currently in the first subsection.
    • P/T: "Tell me what it is, and these gentlemen won't have to indulge their darker side." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:09, May 7, 2019 (UTC)
  • I think you should rename this article to just "Unidentified Gran (Rimmer's Rest)" Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:34, May 7, 2019 (UTC)
QGJ
  • I would like to see ref 2 elaborated upon. Why can that period be narrowed down to 4 ABY?
  • The intro calls Katarn a "Rebel agent" during the events of the game, while the bio calls him a "former Rebel agent" First of all, this is insconsistent. Second, the intro is incorrect, as there was no Rebel Alliance anymore in 5 ABY, despite what the Dark Forces books say. Finally, some context is needed as to why Katarn is called a "former" Rebel agent in the bio. It could be because he left the Alliance, or it could be because the Alliance was reformed into the New Republic, as I mentioned previously. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 07:44, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
    • Read it again: The intro does not state that Katarn was an agent in 5 ABY. The agent status is brought up before the 5 ABY date is mentioned, because given that the Gran says the first encounter happened a "few" years before their renewed encounter in the bar (See first bio quote), we know that event did not take place in 5 ABY. Generally, "few" can be roughly said to be at the least three years (albeit not exact). This would, if anything, place Katarn during the Dark Trooper crisis, during which he was a Rebel agent. The bio reiterates this, in fact. The 4 ABY date, by word, is written as "by 4 ABY," indicating that the event happened by the year 4 ABY, but not during 5 ABY. I can try to add some context for the "former" part later in the bio, though the detail I feel pertains more towards Kyle than the Gran, and this article is about the Gran. I could just say "former agent" maybe, and leave out the Rebel part? Katarn's allegiance isn't extremely clear, given through dialogue, the fact that Jan happens to find him on Nar Shaddaa, and the fact his mission to Nar Shaddaa seems to be of a completely personal nature. The fact that the book is flat out called "Rebel Agent" is pretty confusing in this regard, though given everything after Nar Shaddaa is a New Republic mission, he's apparently an agent again from that point forward. I'll find a way to explain the former part. I can also expand on the ref given what I've mentioned above, though. If that makes sense. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 23:26, October 30, 2018 (UTC)
      • Regarding the "Rebel agent" part, I was mainly talking about the last sentence of the intro. The sentence talked about the mission to Nar Shaddaa and specifically referred to Katarn as a Rebel agent, but you've now changed that part. Also, if the sources are inconclusive regarding Katarn's status as an agent, then how can we speculate that he was a "former" agent? Maybe he never officially left Rebel Alliance/New Republic service, and just took a leave of absence to deal with some personal stuff. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 19:49, November 4, 2018 (UTC)
      • Regarding the dating. It doesn't matter that the Gran says it was a few years back, it's only an approximation on his part. The ref note specifically says that their first meeting occurred after the Battle of Endor, which we know took place in 4 ABY. We also know that their second meeting took place in 5 ABY, therefore the first meeting must have already taken place by that point. We have thus narrowed down the date of the first meeting to a period between 4 ABY - 5 ABY. However, if we also know that Kyle worked for the Rebel Alliance during their original encounter (as the bio implies), we can narrow the date further down, since we know that the Rebel Alliance was reformed into the New Republic also in 4 ABY, one month after Endor. That's the logic that I want to see explained in the ref note. Instead of just saying "this period corresponds to X, according to NEC." NEC doesn't spell out that train of thought, that's a logical deduction on our part. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 19:49, November 4, 2018 (UTC)
        • Looking over it I don't know why exactly we concluded it was after the Battle of Endor, other than I guess the "three months" to heal bit (Which I suppose could be argued the same way as the "few years back" quote). But the Gran's mouth is the only thing we have as far as a date. I'm guessing that conclusion was made since I think three months before the book begins is still after the Endor battle, but that would still be by that time, since this three months could have also been years ago. It's not horribly clear. All we really know I guess is that the confrontation took place before the book's start. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 03:20, November 14, 2018 (UTC)
          • The thing is, we don't know how many months into 5 ABY the events of Jedi Knight take place. For all we know, it could be halfway through the year, in which case "three months ago" would still be in 5 ABY. Also, this means that the date in the first sentence of the bio could be wrong. The Gran could have been doing something else in 4 ABY and only became a bodyguard at the start of 5 ABY. Thus, you can't say that he was a bodyguard "by 4 ABY." That date could work if we could verify that Katarn was still a Rebel agent at the time (i.e. the Rebellion still existed). However, if the quote in the first section is all the information we have on their first encounter, then it's not really evident from the quote alone that Katarn was still a Rebel agent at the time. It could have been a freelance job taken by him. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 20:18, November 24, 2018 (UTC)
            • That's true. I'm guessing there was a reason that 4 ABY was accepted in the first place. According to the original nomination page Tope said something about sourcing something to the NEC (Which I have, so I must have looked too), but then we also went off the "several years" comment. But you don't seem to consider that relevant, I think (?). Though I guess even if it was several years prior, then he switched over careers at least by 5 ABY then, and not 4. So then I guess 4 ABY was used to differentiate the years, I guess, though yes I guess he could have remained a bodyguard, up to at least 5 ABY. So yah I think I see what you mean. We don't know if Kyle was in fact a Rebel agent at the time, or if he was on some off time, or if it was even a Rebel sanctioned mission (Although, given the timeline the books offer, Kyle would have unlikely encountered the Gran while or before his time as an Imp Cadet, and not before his mission to Danuta, so he would have had some work as a Rebel under his belt by the time of the Gran encounter...likely. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 04:44, November 26, 2018 (UTC)
              • I've taken the liberty to reword the ref note so it better gets the point across, IMO. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 23:33, December 1, 2018 (UTC)
  • Ref 7 needs to be fully linked and given proper context. After the conclusion of the Gran's cutscene in the game What game? Reference notes are basically mini-articles in and of themselves, so they should not require the reader to look at the rest of the article to know what you are talking about. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 19:49, November 4, 2018 (UTC)

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