Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Gand/Legends (second nomination)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Gand

  • Nominated by: Trak Nar Ramble on 05:29, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • Nomination comments: Finally nommed it, and now properly, after searching for the old nom from a year ago. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:29, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

(3 Inqs/5 Users/8 Total)

Support

  1. SavageBob deems this article sufficient and its author worthy of using pronouns. ~ SavageBob 22:56, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
  2. Tinwe(comlink) 14:38, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
  3. Good read. I enjoyed that. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:42, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
  4. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:44, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
  5. I guess I have read this often enough. –Tm_T (Talk) 05:46, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
  6. Inqvote Gotta love an article that averages one ref every twenty words. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 02:31, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
  7. Inqvote Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 18:09, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
  8. Inqvote --Eyrezer 10:00, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

Object

Prepare to be savaged...

Yay, a species nom! :)

  • I'll give it a closer read later, but just on a glance, you'll need to source the "notable Gand" in the infobox.
  • No quotes for the other sections? I'd think there would be something, what with all the appearances listed.
    • Still looking for quotes. I'll see if Zuckuss or Ooryl have anything interesting to say. Aside from "Ooryl is token Gand." Which I just slotted into the "Gitg" section. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:22, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • I notice a lot of appearances and sources that don't seem to be reflected in the "Notes and references." Movie aliens are a pain in the breathmask because there are just tons and tons of places to check for info. I'm guessing many of the non-cited sources/appearances are simply appearances or brief mentions of Zuckuss, but are you sure you've checked all the others for pertinent info? This is what tanked the Gotal nom a while ago; there were just too many sources to check. Tis all for now. Will read more closely soon. ~ SavageBob 06:51, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • A number of sources are Zuckuss/Ooryl sources, which I had noted in the Appearances listing (mainly for my benefit so I can keep track of them). Others I may need to check with other people who have the source material. I'll give it another once-over tomorrow. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:22, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
      • Went through the appearances again. Most are Zuckuss/Ooryl appearances. Noted them. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:56, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
        • OK, so we're reasonably sure that every unique Gand appearance has been accounted for? ~ SavageBob 01:07, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
          • After double-checking with my notes, it looks like. I'll go through it again and double-check. But upon reviewing my notes again, it looks like everything's covered. I'll need to bug someone about Threepio pretending to be a Gand, if that's needed, but aside from that, all the random Gands have been accounted for. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:16, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
            • Goodwood gave me the info on the Gand language and Threepio pretending to be a Gand. I added the bits about how the language sounds to outsiders to help round out that part in the B&a section. This should cover the Tatooine Ghost mention. The Inferno mention I'll still need to double-check on, but since it was a mention, I wasn't too worried about that. Could be someone saying "By the misty skies of Gand!" for all I know. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:09, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
              • Got Inferno covered. Though, according to Karohalva, Joiner King either has no mention of Gand or the text was translated incorrectly. I don't have the actual book on-hand, so I can't check for myself. The sole mention in Joiner King is the only one I need to double-check on. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:14, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
                • The searchable Amazon version shows no hits for "Gand." I'll strike this objection, but the book should probably be removed from the Appearances list. ~ SavageBob 04:32, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
  • Ah, one more thing: You'll need to consult some of the behind-the-scenes material, art books, etc. regarding Empire for information about the concept and creation of the Gand species. You may already have a bunch of this info in the Zuckuss article; if so, just rewrite it and insert it in there. ~ SavageBob 06:53, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • Nicked and reworded some stuff from Zuckuss's article for some Bts expansion. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:46, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
  • Lead: Do they refer to themselves in 3rd person by default in any language or only in Basic? This might be a good time to mention the Gand language.
    • I'll need to double-check, but it seems to be predominantly in Basic for that. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:46, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • Bio & app: "insectine"? Is this term used in the OS? "Insectoid" would be more in keeping with other such species.
    • That must have been added by an anon and I must've missed it. I usually use "insectoid." Fixed now. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:46, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • Bio & app: Who expected the breathers to die out or evolve?
    • Not sure, but GG3 said it. So, I would assume xenobiologists. Added. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:46, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
      • What's the exact wording from GG3? We should avoid assumptions if possible... ~ SavageBob 01:07, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
        • My bad, AE, not GG3. I'll double-check that, make sure I didn't cite it improperly. Anywho... "There are some Gand sects that have lungs— These Gands are of an older evolutionary stock and will either die out or further evolve." Right away, I noticed that AE also alternates between "Gand" and "Gands" as plural (the very next mention in the "Breathers" section in plural is "Gand"). Anywho, earlier this evening, I cracked open EGAS to see what it had to say and it worded it as "Scientists do not know if these Gand are an older variation of the lungless subspecies or simply another coexisting race" or something to that effect. I may just add that bit of info into that line to round it out and replace "xenobiologist" with "scientist." Trak Nar Ramble on 03:16, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
          • I added back in the alternate plural. I think you should use one form, but include both as possibilities at the first mention. Can you add a source to my addition of "Gand" as plural in B&A? I also notice at least one instance beyond the first mentions where "Gand" is still being used as the plural (first sentence of GITG). ~ SavageBob 20:40, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Bio & app: Oxygen exposure requires replacement lungs? Does the OS elaborate on what these would be? Are we talking transplants? Cybernetics?
  • Bio & app: "Gands stricken with oxygen inhalation were not expected to survive for very long." Not expected by whom? Can we rewrite in active voice?
  • Bio & app: Findsmen needs some context upon first mention. More later! ~ SavageBob 06:43, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
    • Further expansion of Findsmen in the sub-section, as due to fatigue and sleepiness, I misread this. Now to tackle it in the B&a section... Trak Nar Ramble on 08:11, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
      • Tackled. I'll double-check the article tomorrow after I get some sleep. Trak Nar Ramble on 08:16, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • History: "Pocket colonies" is in quotes. Can you stub this as an article if this is something Gand-specific, say who you're quoting, or rephrase so that the quotes aren't necessary?
  • History: Same for "alien quarters." Are the quotes necessary?
  • "He admitted to finding the ceremony unsettling." Who is he here, Cracken or Ooryl?
  • I think you can expand the "History" section quite a bit more by checking The Essential Atlas. This will tell you where Gand the planet fell during various conflicts. Let me know if you don't have access to the book. ~ SavageBob 19:45, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
    • Thankfully, I have the book. Unfortunately, it lacks a decent index, so it looks like the rest of this evening will be spent scanning the book for every single usage of "Gand." Trak Nar Ramble on 21:23, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
      • Amazon's searchable version turns up no hits for "Gand," but I was thinking more along the lines of looking at the maps to see where the planet Gand fell during various eras of galactic history. ~ SavageBob 00:37, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
        • That's pretty much exactly what I did this evening. I have notes written up, I'll be expanding the History section with that. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:21, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
          • Oh yeah, expanded the History section. Hooray for stuff extrapolated from maps. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:37, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
  • Bit more before I revisit the older objections. Soc & cult: "a potentially lethal atmosphere comprised of ammonia" -- Potentially lethal to Gands? To oxygen-breatehrs? Who?
  • "helped deter the galaxy as a whole" -- deter them from doing what?
  • Soc & cult: I changed a "he" to "he or she," assuming they have two sexes. If they do, this should perhaps be mentioned in Bio & appearance.
    • NEGAS and EGAS both made the mentions of females (usually in regards to the Gand using name reduction), so they apparently have two sexes. Specified. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:49, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
  • Soc & cult: "Mastering a skill, such as becoming a findsman, allowed for the use of the given name, all with third-person self-reference." I'm unclear on what the last bit of this sentence means. Is it that becoming a findsman let them use a given name and third-person pronouns? Or was the third-person thing applicable to all Gands?
  • Soc & cult: "name reduction" -- quotes necessary?
  • Soc & cult: Gands exiled -- exiled from where? Their community or the planet?
  • Soc & cult: I reworded the bit about tracking down fugitives to avoid assumption of gender. And since this is Star Wars, I couldn't even use "he or she"!
  • Soc & cult: The paragraph on the history and foundation of the findsman should probably be moved to "History." Will finish up the review soon. :) ~ SavageBob 20:33, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
  • Soc & cult: Oh, one more thing: Do the RPG stats from WEG or WOTC mention that findsman are, in fact, Force-sensitive? Game stats are canon, so this would allow for a less speculative wording if these sources do assert this. ~ SavageBob 20:34, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
    • Yes, they do. I have Alien Anthology sitting right beside me and in the findsman prestige class section, it lists all the Force skills they can use. If I recall, Scum & Villainy also said so, but I don't have it with me to check, same with my other sources that are on another computer. Also, for what it's worth, one of my 4-LOM sources, specifically the Official Starships and Vehicles Collextion 38 says "Jabba paired 4-LOM with the bounty hunter Zuckuss, a member of the naturally force-sensitive Gand sub-species. These little findsmen were able to use their uncanny intuition to track possible future movements of their prey. " Though, going by that, it may be safe to assume that at least one of the sub-species (breathers, since Zuckuss is one?) is Force-sensitive. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:49, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
      • It sounds like the Vehicles Collection is mistakenly labeling the findsmen as a subspecies. I'd be hesitant to take that to mean all breathers are Force-senstive. It may be worth noting the discrepancy in BTS, though. ~ SavageBob 20:54, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
        • Done. Oh, and got another question which sort of goes along with Ooryl's ignorance of pronouns. Schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder apparently affects Gands, or at the very least, affected Zuckuss. Should those be mentioned, and if so, what would be the best way to mention it (I assume it would be mentioned in the B&A section)? Trak Nar Ramble on 21:30, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
          • Yeah, I wouldn't use one Gand as indicative of the entire species, but you could say something like, "At least one Gand, Zuckuss, suffered from schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder." It could arguably go in B&A or S&C, depending on whether you think mental illness is more physical/biological or social/cultural in nature. ~ SavageBob 22:25, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
  • GITG: I think this section could be better organized if you incorporate information from AA and UAA and then use the Gands from various stories as examples. By that, I mean that the AA/UAA books (and sometimes EGAS and NEGAS) usually include more general information about whether a species integrated into the galaxy in any great numbers, the kinds of jobs those members took, etc. UAA, for instance, notes that "Gand adventurers" (read, some offworld Gand) can find work as "scoundrels, soldiers, bounty hunters, and findsmen." Perhaps use those as general categories and then use the specific Gands as examples.
    • Did some rewording and reorganizing. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:43, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
      • I still think it could use some work. It should probably start with a broad statement that "Gands who left their homeworld often found work as X, Y, and Z." Then have paragraphs on each of X, Y, and Z. As it stands, it appears you've taken a chronological approach, but I'd argue that the chronological stuff should fall within the broader thematic paragraphs of Gands as bounty hunters, Gands as soldiers, Gands as short-order cooks, or whatever other categories X, Y, and Z (etc.) end up being. ~ SavageBob 20:40, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
        • Reworded parts, added an overall blanket paragraph, reordered paragraphs, resectioned paragraphs and subjects, and recited other bits. Trak Nar Ramble on 22:14, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • I also see from UAA that "Gand" is an alternative plural form of the name. This should be mentioned in the intro and somewhere in the body.
    • Done, and alternated between the usage of "Gands" and "Gand." Trak Nar Ramble on 05:43, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
      • While I think both alternatives should be mentioned, it'd be best to pick one and use it consistently throughout the article. ~ SavageBob 01:07, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
        • I'll go through with a copy-edit and add some s's to "Gand." Trak Nar Ramble on 03:16, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • GITG: "who left for Nar Shadaa" -- Do you mean "who left to live on Nar Shadaa"?
  • GITG: Context needed for Jekk'jekk Tarr, G0-T0, Jedi Exile, Zayne Carrick, Quinlan Vos, Connor Freeman, Scarlet Vertha, Bacta War, Yuuzhan Vong War.
  • GITG: You'll need to cite a source for the Jedi Exile's gender, since it's not specified in KOTOR2.
  • GITG: "served as a general" -- in what organization?
  • GITG: Perhaps stub and write an article for the command center.
  • GITG: Whenever possible, it would be nice to have hard dates for when various Gands were seen/did things.
  • No mention of the Gand shockprod staff anywhere? ~ SavageBob 22:49, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
  • BTS: Who called the bounty hunter scene "infamous"? It's POV unless it can be attributed somewhere.
  • BTS: Can you use the citeweb template for the interview and Kotobukiya links?
  • BTS: Can you say who named the species in GG3?
  • BTS: I'm not sure the Zuckuss/4-LOM name switch-a-roo is pertinent to this particular article. Perhaps jump directly to GG3 naming the species?
  • BTS: Could you give publication dates for the sources you mention that have misspelled the species' name?
  • BTS: Author and date on the X-wing novel with Ooryl? Ditto for "Of Possible Futures."
  • BTS: "Many have viewed the lungless sub-species to be a retcon, as Qrygg was portrayed as not needing to breathe, whereas Zuckuss suffered from a respiratory condition." Can you source this statement? It sounds like OR without some attribution.
    • I'll just nix that bit. It was Tope's idea to mention it anyway. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:43, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • BTS: Why the mistrust of short Gands? They appear in a canon source, so we have to accept that there are short Gands too. I'd just mention in B&A that some Gands were short, assume it's a valid phenotypic variation, and move on. No need to treat KOTOR2 as being in error. ~ SavageBob 03:50, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Sources: We're not supposed to have redlinks in source lists, so could you at least stub My Star Wars? ~ SavageBob 03:52, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
    • Once that particular issue of Insider finally shows up around here, I plan to. Beyond that, all I can do is say it was a feature. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:12, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • BTS: Can you clarify that it was the scene with Zuckuss that was filmed in 1979, but that the film was released in 1980? Technically, I'd say 1980 should be the "first appearance," at any rate. ~ SavageBob 19:15, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
    • Done. Nixed the date in with the scene was actually filmed, added that it was onboard the Executor and reworded it. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:51, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, one more thing for now: B&A: I think you could expand on how they look quite a bit. You'll have to basically describe the images of Gands in prose to give a fuller description of the species' appearance. For example, just looking at the images in the article, I notice that some Gands have fairly spherical heads while others have heads that curve backward to a point, Gands have three fingers per hand, some Gands have a raised, circular area at the front of the head that is divided into smaller sectors, that the species has gray or white eyes, that Gands have three pointed mouthparts under that breather, that they have two horn-like projections on the chin, etc. There are probably other images of Gands to dissect in this way, but the B&A needs to provide all the variations and commonalities in prose. ~ SavageBob 20:40, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
    • Went through the images to hunt down variations in head shape, eye color, exoskeleton color, texture of exoskeleton, number of fingers, head structure... Not sure about throwing in the variations of the breath masks used, as that is more of personal preference to that particular Gand than it is a difference in physiology. Trak Nar Ramble on 22:14, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
      • Looks good. I think breathmask variation is OK to leave out; if anything, it could be mentioned in S&C, but it's probably not worth it. I believe there's one remaining objection from me (way up at the top), so let me know when you have a chance to address it. :) ~ SavageBob 21:30, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, I know this seems to be the never-ending review, but we'll get there, I swear! :) While working on the Filar-Nitzan article, I noticed an image of Zuckuss in the article "Underworld: A Galaxy of Scum and Villainy". However, I notice that this isn't listed in the Gand article. Granted, it's a picture only, but it should be listed as such. This also suggests that perhaps a few other sources/appearances may have been missed. Maybe do a quick (not-so-quick?) "What links there" on Zuckuss and Gand (and maybe Ooryl) to find those last few sources that may have been overlooked? Again, we're getting there! :) ~ SavageBob 04:38, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
      • Well, upon finally getting Insider 124, Zuckuss has at least three picture-only sources in it. And searching the Force Unleashed novel for a Gand mention, I see "Flat on his back, the apprentice wheezed through his mask like an asthmatic Gand [...]" Apparently, Gands can get asthma. Should this be mentioned? Trak Nar Ramble on 05:23, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
        • Yeah, I think so. --Eyrezer 07:18, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
          • Added it in at the end of the B&a section, at the end of the ending misc. paragraph. It's prolly a safe bet that only breathing Gands could get asthma, but I left it ambiguous to which Gand variety could get it, in the off-chance that some author decides that somehow some lungless Gand, for whatever crazy reason, develops asthma. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:26, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
            • Is this sweep of "What links here?" finished? If so, I'll strike. ~ SavageBob 16:30, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
              • Yep, though I'll go through with another, just in case. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:44, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
              • Working on another "What Links Here" sweep and found a usable Gand quote and threw it in. If you think the quote would fit better in another section or replacing another quote, have at it. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:05, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, two more things and I think we're done! First, the Elders of Gand mentioned in the "Society and culture" come out of nowhere. Is there any more info on these guys? Would it be possible to provide context upon first mention?
    • NEGAS and EGAS were never really clear on exactly what the Elders of Gand were, whether they are a governing body or a findsmen council or what. CSWE simply says that they are the leaders of Gand society, so I slotted that in. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:44, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Second, I'd take another look at History and move a lot of it into "Society and culture." The second paragraph, the first couple sentences of the third paragraph, and the fifth paragraph contain lots of information that seems more cultural and society than historical in nature; it might be worth moving the bulk of this info to "S&C" and just mentioning in History that these institutions were developed rather than describing them in detail in that portion. It's an art, not a science, but take another look, and I'll be happy to support! :) ~ SavageBob 16:30, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
    • Hoo boy, that History section is gonna be much, much smaller... Trak Nar Ramble on 20:44, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
Tm_T in gands nest
  • First quickie: in the Gands in the galaxy section, you are stating that the Jedi Exile obtained Ossluk's gloves, but AFAICT it's not confirmed, it's simply possibility and thus shouldn't be mentioned? –Tm_T (Talk) 08:37, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • Ooh, good point. I nixed that bit entirely, then. Trak Nar Ramble on 08:41, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • Continuing about the section mentioned above: I'm sure you can tie up the Visquis-Goto gands together as these are the same Gand nest in the same battle. Noslee is possibly separate individual so prolly mention about him can go after or before the other KOTOR2 Gands.
  • Giving a timeframe for those above?
    • Relative timeframe given. I'll need to double-check the playthroughs for specifics. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:30, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • Repetitive references, I'm not sure if you need to repeat the same ref for every sentence, especially if you manage to tie up those things together to make it obvious. (:
  • More later. –Tm_T (Talk) 15:12, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • Here some more about these same sentences, oh the details: G0-T0 is mentioned as the leader of the Exchange in Hutt Space. You might need to specify this, as IIRC there's no head of the entire Exchange in that era (if ever). I suppose specifying Visquis as subordinate of G0-T0 would be too much, I don't know. (: –Tm_T (Talk) 11:48, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
Ecks Dee
  • There seems to be a broken reference in the infobox. 1358 (Talk) 13:10, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
    • Typo on my part, because apparently Preview and I have had a falling out. Fixed now. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:33, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
  • One from the intro: "Gands without lungs, however, did not respire and were immune to poisonous gases. Such Gand could venture offworld without worry of suffocation." These two sentences talk about they same thing; they could be combined somehow. 1358 (Talk) 07:46, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Their sentience needs a mention in the B&A.
  • "Most Gands usually stood just slightly shorter than the average Human,[16] though there were some that were even shorter." Some were shorter but some were even shorter? Reword. Also, you can probably sneak their actual lenght (1.4-1.6 meters) in there.
  • In response to Bob's objection about the plural form of Gand, I'd recommend sticking with Gands and mention the inconsistency in the Bts.
    • I'll tackle that one tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, here. Trak Nar Ramble on 08:22, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
      • Nixed from intro and B&a. I'm keeping the alternation between the two for the time being, but I will note the discrepancy in the Bts. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:43, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • "The Gand species had only two sexes; male or female." Only two? I'd say that's the most common version.
  • Why are the fourth and the fifth paragraphs separated from the third? They contain info about the same thing.
  • That's it from the B&A, will continue soon. 1358 (Talk) 08:12, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Can you give a more specific location, like the planet's sector, and source it to TEA/whatever?
    • When I scoured the maps for Gand, it gave no sector. Just that it was located beyond the Centrality. The most I can specify is that it is north. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:46, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
      • Double-checked once again earlier this evening. No sector given for Gand. Not even a neighboring sector. It's just slightly northwest of the Centrality and bordering on Wild Space. I can add that much, but I can't give a sector, system, sun, anything. It's pretty darn isolated and it's not even shown on half of the maps. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
  • "They were considered by most non-Gand to be a very humble society…" Can you find another word for non-Gand? It doesn't really sound encyclopedic.
  • "Some Gands who commit unspeakable…" Isn't the past tense form "committed"?
  • "The few non-Gand allowed…" Again, another word please.
  • "Many attributed their…" Many what? Offworlders? Gands? Findsmen?
  • "Non-Gand often viewed…" You know what I want here. :P
  • That's it through S&C. 1358 (Talk) 11:20, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
    • Sorry to butt in, Xd, but for what it's worth, I've used non-[species] in many an article with no complaint. If non-Human is OK, I don't see why non-Gand or non-Laboi or non-Gamorrean wouldn't be, and it gives us a nice synonym for "members of other species," which can get tiresome at times. Just my two creds. :) ~ SavageBob 16:12, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
      • I'm gonna have to side with Bob on this one. I honestly don't see the problem with "non-Gand." Similar terminology has been used in sources and in other articles. As he said, we use "non-Human" without complaint, why not "non-Gand"? Why are Humans the only ones allowed to use that type of terminology? Trak Nar Ramble on 20:43, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
A few words from Tinwe
  • I see you don't have the Ultimate Alien Anthology listed in the sources section; I don't know how much the Gand entry differs from that in the Alien Anthology, but after a quick read I spotted that at least a few things mentioned in the UAA are missing from the article (or at least I think they are, I hope I didn't read too sloppily...):
    • Bob had included UAA in with the AA reference tag, so it is cited. From what I gathered (I have AA), both of the entires for Gand seem relatively the same, with perhaps some changes in wording here and there. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:21, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
      • Yeah, I noticed that, I was just wondering why it wasn't in the Sources section proper. But I guess this is one of those {{Sofixit}} things, so that's what I've done. :) Hopefully I managed to squeeze it into the right place, I'm not sure when those Fact Files were published. Tinwe(comlink) 07:56, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
        • Ah, my bad. I misread that and through you meant in the references or something. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:39, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
    • Xenobiologists speculate that the Gand evolved from insects, but the Gand do not allow themselves to be studied more closely. Later, the entry does refer to the "insectoid heritage" of the Gand, but still this would be an interesting addition.
      • Added the bit about the Gand not wanting to be studied. The evolving from insects bit I'm gonna throw into the intro to pad it some more. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:21, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
    • Xenobiologists have identified nearly a dozen subspecies of Gand (this kinda conflicts with the statement that they don't allow themselves to be studied, but that's UAA's fault, not mine ;).
      • Added that by way of adding that the Gand don't wanna be studied. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:21, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
    • "Even the most accomplished Gand warrior downplays his achievements when discussing them and responds with humility when praised." Would be a good addition to the Society and culture section, and indeed you have something to this effect there already, buy perhaps it could be made more explicit.
    • Gands have a written language too, not just spoken one.
      • Squeezed that in. It's also going into the Gand language article. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:21, March 23, 2011 (UTC)
    • UAA states that "most" Gand are unable to speak Basic. Maybe a note on this in the Biology and appearance section where Gand & Basic are discussed?
    • In the infobox, you list the average lifespan being up to 61 years. In UAA, it is stated that the Gand are middle-aged when they are 46-79 years old and can live up to 95+ years... I don't know if this has been overwritten by Scum and Villainy since it's a more recent source (and which I don't own so I cannot check it myself), but at least a Bts note would be fitting.
      • Well, 61 years is an average lifespan. I'll drop in the venerable age. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:21, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, since the UAA came out in 2003, I'm not sure if some of the points I've made are valid since they could have easily been overwritten by more recent sources. But I hope this helps anyway. :) Tinwe(comlink) 11:25, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

  • More to come later this week when I've read this over again. Tinwe(comlink) 07:56, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
    • Bah, it seems RL has caught up with me... I'll try my best to get a full review done by the end of this week though. Tinwe(comlink) 05:43, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Finally found the time to do this. I'll go through the article section by section for easier reference.

Biology and appearance

  • Most Gands had three fingers on each hand, although those digits were capable of punching through stormtrooper armor: I think this needs slight rewording—the use of although here is a bit baffling. To me it seems like suggesting that performing such feats would be perfectly normal for someone with more than three digits, but because Gands have only three, this is exceptional... So maybe changing this to "with those digits capable of punching" or something like that?
  • The Gand species commonly had two sexes: I suggest removing "commonly." I know you reworded this once already due to Xd's objection, but now it reads like they could have more than two sexes (and that's not the intention, right?).
  • I would change In light of these variations, however to "Despite these variations." Using "in light of" would seem more appropriate to me if the Gands were usually classified into more than two sub-species.
  • A word about the referencing. I'm not really an article writer, but I've done my best to familiarize myself with Wookieepedia's sourcing system, and to me it seems you have some superfluous references throughout the article. For example, these two consecutive sentences are attributed to the same source: Ingested materials aided in gas exchange, and waste passed through openings in the exoskeleton.[1] This made lungless Gands immune to poisonous gases and allowed them to forgo respirators when they ventured offworld.[1] I've understood that even if a paragraph incorporates information from more than one source, consecutive sentences within it that come from the same source can be referenced "together," so that there is no need to add the same reference after all of them (that's what I've seen being done, anyway). There are examples of this kind of superfluous referencing later in the article; I'm not going to pick out all of them here, but I suggest you go through the references with a fine comb once more to remove any that are not needed. That is if I'm right about this—if I've understood the system wrong, I apologize for wasting your time with a pointless objection. :)
    • Nah, you're right. I have a habit of referencing every single sentence, regardless if it is from the same source material. Fixed that bit, I'll read over it and tackle the rest afterward. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:54, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
  • Reference no. 26 was a bit confusing at first, since you use the abbreviation OPF for the Of Possible Futures short story. Consider adding the whole name.
  • Gands possessed regenerative abilities,[2] Ooryl Qrygg was able to regrow a severed arm within months: maybe adding a connector here, like: ...abilities; for example, Ooryl Qrygg was able...

Not an objection, but it's interesting that Zuckuss refers to the lungless Gands as "ammonia-breathers," even though they do not respire. :D

Society and culture

  • Really nitpicky, but the image caption here needs a period, since it's a full sentence. :P
  • This sentence seems a bit POVish: This atmosphere helped deter galactic interference as a whole and allowed the Gands to develop a rich, yet peculiar, culture. Maybe it's the use of words like "deter" and "interference"—or do they come from the sources? I would say something like "This atmosphere resulted in very little galactic influences finding their way to the planet, allowing the Gands to develop a rich, yet peculiar, culture."
  • In order for the Elders of Gand—the leaders of Gand society—to deem a Gand worthy to become janwuine, the highest honor a Gand could receive,[14] they would send the ruetsavii—a group of Gands who were renowned for their own accomplishments and therefore considered able to judge the deeds of others[4]—to observe and chronicle the exploits of the Gand in question, and then make the determination whether that Gand was ready to undergo the ceremony. Agh. This is so long and there are symptoms of dash-happiness to be found... Consider breaking this senctence up, the readability is not at its best right now.
    • Divided it up a bit. I'll go through it again and see if there is any other way I can word it. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:54, April 4, 2011 (UTC)

History

  • This isolation allowed the Gand society to flourish without the interference of the Galactic Republic. Again, seems a bit POVish (see above). Maybe change into "...to develop without influences from the Galactic Republic" or something similar.

Gands in the galaxy

  • They were found on a number of different planets, such as Taris,[37] Dorvalla,[38] on planets in the Outer Rim Territories,[39] on Orvax IV,[40] and on Onadax.[41] Since Orvax IV and Onadax are Outer Rim planets (which is not clear from the context here), I suggest rewording this to something like "...such as Taris and Dorvalla, and on planets in the Outer Rim Territories, including Orvax IV and Onadax."
    • Fixed. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:54, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
    • Gah, I just realized all of the planets mentioned are in fact in the Outer Rim. So maybe changing this into "They were found on a number of different planets, such as the Outer Rim worlds of Taris, Dorvalla, Orvax IV and Onadax" would be in place. Tinwe(comlink) 16:16, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
    • Fixed again. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:54, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
  • Maybe adding the year of the Battle of Geonosis? On a related note, it's a bit confusing how you jump from the last decades of the Republic to the Mandalorian Wars, especially since you give no timeframe for the latter... To a casual reader it might seem like the Mandalorian Wars happened after the Battle of Geonosis. Either add some more dates here or try describing the events in chronological order.
    • I originally had this written in chronological order, though SavageBob suggested reorganizing it to be written by profession and locale. I switched the parts around a bit and added a date of then Random Gand #285 croaked. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:54, April 4, 2011 (UTC)

Phew, that's all from me. For now, at least. :) Tinwe(comlink) 08:45, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Fred strikes
  • This may just be me, but I feel it's necessary to better differentiate between the species and the planet in "History." It gets confusing and I, at least, keep getting the two mixed up. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 17:11, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
    • Good eye there, actually. I tweaked it a bit to better differentiate. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:58, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
      • That's better. Good job. I actually enjoyed reviewing this. :P MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 18:42, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
QGJ
  • Could you make the "Gands in the galaxy" more chronologically streamlined? Right now, you kinda jump around the timeline from the Galactic Civil War, to the Clone Wars, to the Dark Wars, etc. It gets a bit confusing. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:45, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
    • That may be my fault, since I requested it be organized thematically around roles Gands play in the galaxy. I still believe that's the best approach, but perhaps each paragraph should be organized chronologically? ~SavageBOB sig 19:33, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
      • It was originally arranged chronologically, but I'll see what I can do within each paragraph. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:22, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
      • Reading over it, the only paragraph that wasn't arranged chronologically was the bits about the Jedi Order and Rogue Squadron. That paragraph has been rearranged. Other Gands weren't given specific chronological appearances, Vaskau Farg, for example, so I can't really place him. Neither could I place Ossluk anywhere. He was introduced in cut content and only his gloves made it to the final release, so for all intents and purposes, assuming he was around when the Gand nest was at Jekk'Jekk Tarr is speculation. I can only place his gloves there, not him. But, I reorganized some paragraphs to be more chronological. I'm currently waiting for Vaskau's source material to slowly load so I can double-check and hopefully be able to place him. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:35, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
        • Annnd... double-checked Farg. No era given, nothing to indicate a relative time frame, only that he starts his journey on Day 13 and he's complaining about the cold and how ugly and stuffed-shirt Arkanians are. Trak Nar Ramble on 20:41, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
          • I'd still prefer the entire section to be organized chronologically, but I guess that's just the matter of preference and Bob's approach also makes sense. Nice article, Trak. QuiGonJinn now knows more about the Gands. QuiGonJinn Senate seal(Talk) 16:43, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Eyrezer
  • The quote in the B&A section suggests that there are some Gand that breathe ammonia and some Gand that breathe oxygen; however, the article only mentions ammonia breathers and non-breathers. I checked to see if there was an explanation for this in the BTS, but no such luck. Could you please add info to the B&A on oxygen-breathers, or if this is clarified elsewhere as a mistake, explain it in the BTS. Cheers, --Eyrezer 12:07, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • I ran that by Bob a while back, actually. He said it was best to chalk it up to Zuckuss just simply not knowing that lungless Gands are just that, rather than a species-wide belief on the breathers' part. I'll toss that in, as in the book, he never admitted to the mistake, never made any mention about lungless Gands, just that they are apparently "oxygen breathers." I can't really go much further than that with it, though. Extrapolation leads to speculation, which leads to anger, hate, yadda yadda dark side. Tossed in his mistake. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:00, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
      • I am not happy with this. Am I correct in that all sources say that Gand has an ammonia atmosphere? If so, I think it safe to treat Zuckuss' quote as an error, but it should then be so detailed in the BTS, explaining why the weight of evidence is against it being correct. The quote should then also be removed from the lead of that section, as effectively being inaccurate. How does that sound? --Eyrezer 11:22, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
        • Switched it with the quote in the Bts, added a paragraph concerning, nixed the bit from the main article body. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:50, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • I think the two sub-species should be linked to in the infobox and have their own articles. Please add these.
  • I think you need to add more information on both Zuckuss and Ooryl Qrygg to the Gands in the galaxy section. At the moment, Zuckuss is highlighted earlier in the article as a notable Gand but there is actually less information on him than, say, Vytor Shrike. I would expect his involvement in the hunt for Han Solo to be notable enough alone, and he has had many other pursuits that could be touched on in addition to this. His partnership with 4LOM should be at least mentioned somewhere. Regarding Qrygg, he could also use expansion. In addition to some info on his Rogue Squadron involvement -- for instance, his role in the notable capture of Coruscant -- I recal that he used his findman skills to track down Corran Horn for Luke Skywalker in I, Jedi while he was undercover. His coverage should be expanded. --Eyrezer 11:22, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
    • Done, though I'll need to track down the exact source for the Coruscant bit prior to adding it in. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:50, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
      • Hi Trak. I would actually like to see Zuckuss and Ooryl get almost a paragraph each. For instance, look at Quor'sav. There, Kal'Falnl C'ndros gets a whole paragraph despite being of less notable than Zuckuss or Ooryl. The same level of detail is given on individuals in Phuii, Tynnan, Svivreni, etc. In order words, I think you need to add another couple of hundred words to this section. --Eyrezer 10:22, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
        • Done and done. I crammed in two paragraphs for each of them. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:05, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Anything you can add from Aurra Sing: Bounty Hunters or No Disintegrations?
    • Zuckuss pic only for No Disintegrations. As for Aurra Sing, I'll need to bug someone for that source as I don't have it. Trak Nar Ramble on 23:35, June 27, 2011 (UTC)
      • Ok, any other sources like that? Let me know and I can help trak them down. --Eyrezer 00:09, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
        • Thanks. As far as I know, that's the only one. I don't actually have Scum & Villainy, but I had access to it and wrote pages of notes from it, so that's covered and Bob clued me in to anything I missed from that. I'll need to hunt through the sources (both Gand and Zuckuss) and double-check, though. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:05, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
        • Okay, did a read through on the Zuckuss-centric parts in "DotBH" and found stuff that I added to Zuckuss's article (apart from what has already been touched upon in other sources), but nothing for Gand. However... there is concept art. I'll open up Photoshop and crop some and throw it into the Gand Bts. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:43, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
          • Upon a reread, I found some additional wording for use for the article in "DotBH," so I added it in, along with some additional concept art. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:45, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 10:00, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

  • An archive page for the first time this was nommed a year ago never seems to have been created --- for archiving purposes, can you hunt it down in the FAN page's history and create it (or ask an inq to) and rename this as "second nomination?" Even if it was only up for five minutes, it's still gotta be created. Menkooroo 05:19, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • Done and done. Quite a hunt that was... Trak Nar Ramble on 05:49, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
      • Thank ya. :D What can I say? I'm an archivist at heart. That's half the reason I edit here. Menkooroo 05:52, March 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • Tackled two unnamed Gands so far, and gave them images. I'll need to switch computers for a third and then bug people for sources for a couple more. Trak Nar Ramble on 21:32, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
    • I'd be happy to help track down sources, but it'll take me another week before I can contribute to Wookieepedia with any regularity. ~ SavageBob 22:16, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
      • That'd be much appreciated, thank you. :) Basically, I need to find out any details about Random Gand #327 that was seen in a cantina on Onadax (if I recall correctly, I think he was involved in a sabacc game), and Random Gand #89 who served as a crewmember on the Scarlet Vertha. I wanna make sure there wasn't anything specific about him aside that he served as a crewman. The third Gand I have covered, with his sources and images on another computer. Trak Nar Ramble on 22:20, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
  • Got a couple questions I'm hoping to get some insight on. In Rogue Squadron, when asked about his speech patterns, Ooryl apparently did not know what a pronoun was. This could be a common thing with all Gand, or it could just be with Ooryl. Also, in Slave Ship, Zuckuss commented that lungless Gands were "oxygen-breathers," implying that he doesn't know that they have no lungs. Again, I dunno if this is a common belief in breathing Gands, or if Zuckuss simply needs to go back to science class. Due to that, I am hesitant to add anything concerning those two things. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:35, March 14, 2011 (UTC)
    • I would interpret Ooryl's no knowledge of pronouns as indicative the species, but I would chalk up Zuckuss's statement to some sort of cultural thing rather than an objective statement, since it contradicts other sources. ~ SavageBob 20:45, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Had some repeated paragraphs in the History section that I missed. They should be taken care of now. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:40, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • I come back from a weekend and find that I don't have a whole ton of things that need addressed? I'm actually a bit sad. Anywho, while looking through my notes, I came across something I wanted to add to Zuckuss's article, but needed to double-check on it. Since it is somewhat pertinent to the Gand article, I figure I may as well ask about it here (perhaps I can use it for this article as well). Anywho, in OPF, when Zuckuss would speak sans any of his gear, there was no mention made of him using a vocoder/translator/any vocal assistance, no word on his native tongue, and nothing mentioned that would even remotely match the fart-speak that Ooryl uses (as explained in Wedge's Gamble, chapter 42, page 317). Going by that, Culator said it would be a fairly safe assumption that Zuckuss possesses the proper parts to speak Basic, as was described in AA in reference to Gands in general. He also said that the confirmation of Ooryl's fart-speak and the lack of information concerning how Zuckuss speaks confirms the latter's ability to speak Basic. My question is, can I add that to Zuckuss's article (or even the Gand article as an example) and if so, what would be the best way to cite that? Trak Nar Ramble on 03:41, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
    • I'd say add it in. You may have to add a detailed citation summarizing what you've said here, though, rather than just citing it to a specific book and leaving it at that. ~ SavageBob 20:45, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
      • Added Zuckuss as an example Gand, with an overly-wordy citation. Now to throw that into Zuckuss's article in his P&A section, along with the other languages he knows... Done. Now hopefully no one jumps on my case for using Zuckuss as an example for everything... =P Trak Nar Ramble on 22:27, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • I added some context on symptoms of oxygen inhalation. Trak Nar Ramble on 04:25, March 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Tossed Zuckuss and Ooryl into the intro and played around with the images as suggested by Menk. Trak Nar Ramble on 07:29, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Added the pronunciation after an exhaustive hunt for an "a" with a breve diacritical mark. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:41, June 26, 2011 (UTC)