Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Belaya

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Belaya

(3 Inqs/4 Users/7 Total)

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Support

  1. Inqvote OOM 224 20:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
  2. D MCCG D MCCG (chat) 16:03, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
  3. Perfection.gif great work! Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
  4. Inqvote Great work! JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 22:44, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
  5. Chef's kiss! -- YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) ChissAscendancyCanonSymbol (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
  6. Well done! Samonic ChissAscendancyCanonSymbol (Ah, yes. The negotiator.) 13:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
  7. Inqvote MasterFredCommerce Guild(talk) 08:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Object

OOM
  • It's best to establish context for subjects upon their first mention so as to avoid confusion further down the page. Specifically, Dantooine as a planet and Revan as a former Jedi in the first lines of the first and third paragraph (intro), respectively.
    • Impactic and Immi have tackled that, and some other context left out previously. Please see if we've added too much context or if more is still needed!
      • Looks good, though I think it is a little too much. The first sentence about Revan can be removed since there's no need to mention Revan at that point in the article (since it's not relevant to Belaya). I've also cut down on the context here, please see if that's okay OOM 224 12:06, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
        • Dialed back! Does that now leave the last sentence in a weird place by calling Malak "his former Sith apprentice"? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
          • That can be solved by simply saying that he's a Sith OOM 224 13:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
  • "Although" is preferred over "though" in formal writing
    • Fixed by Impactic.
  • Per precedence, the video game developer (BioWare in this case) should be mentioned in BTS sections OOM 224 19:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Also (following on my first objection. This objection got longer than I thought it would, but bear with me here :P), I'm not sure if so much context on the Jedi Civil War is needed in "Traditions of the Jedi." I suggest first removing the part between "In 3956 BBY" and "Bastila Shan brought Revan," and then adding the necessary context that Revan lost his memories of his past self and was captured by the Jedi; I'd say only those two bits of info are needed since the rest aren't required for 1) Belaya as an article or 2) making the text here clear to readers OOM 224 12:06, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Context needed for Deesra Luur Jada. Something like "Jedi Knight" would do fine. Similarly, context is needed for Korriban
  • Is there a reason why the Masters in that Deesra sentence are listed in the current order? If not then it's best to just sort them alphabetically.
    • Added context. I think the order of the Masters was how they were standing in the Enclave from left to right, but I went ahead and ordered them alphabetically. Wasn't sure to order by first name or last, if I did it wrong just ping me on discord and I can fix it. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 16:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Cool, and no, what you've done is correct OOM 224 16:40, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Is it really unclear whom Gaider is referring too? I'd say it's fair to assume it to be Belaya. Plus, the page is already indicating this by talking about it :P OOM 224 11:34, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I changed it for now, but I'll check with Immi later, it'll probably get rewritten a little bit. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 20:07, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Cool, I've also made an edit to that part. There's also the potential of having that as a {{Quote}} but yeah, I'll let you check with Immi first. OOM 224 20:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Instead of repeating information between both the Biography and the P&T sections, I suggest removing Belaya's species from the Biography
  • Context for Bastila. Not sure what her rank was at the time, but either Jedi Knight or Master would do fine
    • Removed species from the Biography. The council refers to Bastila as a padawan in the game. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 17:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Huh, you'd think that the NPC Jedi protagonist of a game titled Knights of the Old Republic would be at least a Jedi Knight :P OOM 224 18:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
  • "She expressed disbelief that someone so strong […]" It's not immediately clear who "she" is—Bastila or Belaya. Also, that same line is a little "choppy"—it's not really connected to the surrounding sentences. As an example, I've joined the "many nights alone together" sentence here with the previous line for a better flow.
  • "After Revan correctly recited the Jedi Code, he constructed his own lightsaber with a crystal from Master Dorak" — I don't think this is necessary since it's solely about Revan's journey OOM 224 17:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I've revised the Crystal Cave part to focus on Belaya commenting on it. Should we leave any mention of the Jedi Code part to the BTS? I don't believe it's canonically established who re-taught Revan the Jedi Code, so it doesn't really fit the "100% completion" template, and IIRC the dialogue isn't available once someone else has taught it (but we can test that to find out) Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 00:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
      • I think it's fine the way it is, since it's just a game mechanic that technically falls under "Gameplay alternatives" OOM 224 17:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
  • "The fallen Jedi"
    • Some of the detail in the first paragraph, bar the last sentence, can be cut to summarise that Juhani fell and the resulting effects
    • "rumors circulated that local settlers had been attacked by the newly aggressive wildlife, a Jedi apprentice had hurt her own master, and Master Quatra may not survive her injuries" I know I say this a lot, but I don't think this context here is necessary either OOM 224 18:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Worked on the paragraphs, let me know if I need to re-add or remove any context. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 20:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
        • Looks good. OOM 224 20:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Okay, time for the final push
    • I don't think "After Revan located a Star Map within the ruins" is necessary information
      • Removed!
    • For the last Bio paragraph, simply saying that 1) the Enclave was bombarded by the Sith, 2) there were many Jedi casualties, 3) Malak was defeated by Revan, and 4) the First Jedi purge resulted in the deaths of most Order members is enough. Further details aren't needed since all the readers need here is a brief overview on the potential effects of the war on Belaya.
      • How's it now?
        • Looking great! There's only one thing with that last sentence: the First Jedi Purge isn't really part of the Sith Civil War. They're concurrent and certainly related, but the Sith killing Jedi was separate from their own struggle for dominance over each other OOM 224 19:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
    • It's pretty clear that "Peter T." is Peter Thomas, so I'd just replace "and notes from "Peter T." are found" with "whose notes are found"
      • Revised!
    • Lastly, I jsut want to confirm if the Prima's Guide been checked for any additional info OOM 224 18:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Yep! Entirety of the Prima mention: "The courtyard is populated by a few Jedi and by Belaya, who comments on your progress as you learn the ways of the Force. (She’s a friend of Juhani, whom you’ll meet later, and she leaves the courtyard forever if Juhani meets an untimely end.)" Since none of that is unique info, we didn't cite it. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Macaroni
  • I'm not a huge fan of having no section header for the first bts paragraph. What do you think about adding one?
  • I think "Authorial intent" could use a paragraph break and a quote.
    • Addressed both BTS-related objections. Related to the below, adjusted image positioning as well. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 01:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
  • The last two paragraphs of the bio are quite small and only work because of the huge image, which is a bit distracting. I'd say it can be a bit smaller and the last paragraphs merged. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 00:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Merged the paragraphs. The picture's size might need to be adjusted a little more. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 00:42, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't really understand saying "In the time of [...] Revan" -- what are you trying to say here about the timeline that isn't already said? JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 20:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
    • My fault for using a phrasing from the CSWE: "A human Jedi who trained under Master Zhar Lestin in the time of Darth Revan, she was friends with Juhani." I took that to mean that the years of her training overlapped with the years that Revan was active as a Sith. Does the dating already convey that? Revise or remove? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 10:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Check out the revision, and if it's still not working, we'll trim :) Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 21:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Manoof
  • In the last paragraph of "The Fallen Jedi", is it worth noting that Bastila likewise couldn't assist? It's been ages since I played the game so I can't remember if she was available as a party member or not.
    • Revised the wording to include Bastila and be more clear about the instruction—Zhar says "None of the other Jedi at the academy are permitted to help you in this task" and Bastila can't be used as a party member for it. Is that good? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Perfection Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  • The first sentence of "The third trial" is really short, and jumps straight to Revan defeating her. Are you able to expand the initial sentence slightly and mention that they battled? Were any warning words said or was this an ambush strike? Can we say they used lightsabers and force powers or is that a stretch given the context of the game?
    • Revised wording! Didn't add details, both for gameplay reasons (you could choose not to use lightsaber or Force powers) and because it'd go off the topic of Belaya herself. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Awesome that's much better, agree with that Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Same section, I'm not sure the last two sentences are needed. I'll keep looking but no other issues spotted so far! Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 13:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
    • We feel they're needed since Belaya was based on Dantooine; it's relevant to note what happened to Dantooine as it would have affected her (whether or not she was present, whether or not she survived...), as would the Jedi purge (if she survived the Dantooine bombardment). We believe those events need to be mentioned while avoiding out-of-universe speculating about the unknowns (so no "her fate was unknown"). Would you like us to revise the sentences in some other way? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
      • That makes sense, can we at least connect Belaya in there somehow. Eg Juhani left Belaya to join Revan... Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
        • Connected! Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 21:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
          • I had the Lego click sound pop in my head when I read that haha Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Oh, forgot to mention you should double check the categories and see if there's anything else that could be added. I usually go into each existing category and see if there's sub or parent categories that offer a separate category branch that could also apply. For example, I went up the Jedi Knights of the Jedi Order and found under the Jedi individuals category another branch that could apply: Category:Jedi Guardians Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
    • I added Category:Jedi Guardians. I didn't see any other applicable categories, but I'll be on the lookout. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 16:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
      • Having a look in the wider individuals category, can we categorise her as a dantooinian as an inhabitant of that planet? Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Can we describe her hairstyle at all in P&T? Review complete :) Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Initially I thought that category was only for those who were native to it, but it appears to apply to any people who lived on the planet. Added. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 15:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Whoops forgot to address the hairstyle. Fixed. Jedi Order ImpacticForce (Talk) 17:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Comments

Approved as a Featured article by Inquisitorius 08:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

  • Belaya is part of the scope of WP:PRIDE's project based on the strong subtext that she had romantic feelings for Juhani, but at the moment, she has not been placed in the Category:LGBTQIA+ individuals category since it's tricky to judge how explicit that needs to be for a potential status article. I've been unable to find any interviews where it's clear that Belaya is being discussed, though David Gaider said years later of Juhani: "We kind of hid it. She never says, 'She was my lover.' She just says, 'We are very close.'" (I don't think he quite remembered what Juhani did or didn't say, and it isn't totally clear if this is meant to be Belaya or Quatra). For what it's worth, I thought it was obvious and many people have felt that way about her since we're used to having things implied, in subtext, coded, etc., particularly since KOTOR was released in 2003 and it was doing groundbreaking-but-very-carefully stuff with Juhani. How do reviewers feel about that category for Belaya? Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 04:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Upon further research (I'm talking a Google cache of an archive/mirror of the defunct LucasForums, eventually leading to finding the Archive.org of that forum!), we found David Gaider made explicit the authorial intent that Belaya was Juhani's former lover. This has been quote in the BTS, not incorporated into the IU sections. I also found video of the conference panel to transcribe a more accurate quote. Based on this OOU confirmation of what was implied IU, we've confidently placed Belaya in the category. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2 (talk) 22:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)