Talk: The Force/Legends/Archive1

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Talk

Removed the "Force Push" picture, because 1: it was ripped from the Power of the Jedi d20 sourcebook (not that I care, but hey), and 2: the picture was referring to the "Force Light" power, not the force push. --Xhysa 02:46 28 Jan 2006 (GMT)

This page has some NPOV problems. The most recent Wikipedia version has some good fixes for the same problems. --SparqMan 12:32, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)

In regard to the sides of the Force, shouldn't dark side and light side be written in lowercase? That seems to be the Expanded Universe accepted standard. Lieutenant Gerard 19:40, 3 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, other articles have them in lowercase... --Master Starkeiller 12:22, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm, I always thought opposite was the standard (and to be fair there are just as many spelling them uppercase as there are lowercase)...though now that I check the Databank, it does put them in lowercase. ...Well this is a bit shocking. MarcK 12:34, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
  - Officially, it's lowercase it seems... Shouldn't it be in lowercase in the whole Wiki then? --Master Starkeiller 14:27, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

This may be presumptuous of me, but I think this article needs a bit of work to reword and rearrange the information so it is more comprehendible. Is anyone opposed to drastic reorganizations? Oh, and here is a sample article which might be usable to quote GL on the Force being like symbiotes/cancer. Perhaps that thought could be turned into IU information too? Or does that seem like a bad thing to do? --Culix 14:49, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)

It would be a good thing to reduce the redundant repetitions of many things in this article. It became rather obnoxious reading when the same things were repeated over and over again (most noticeably the quotes, I think, but definitely not limited to them). I believe the article would be significantly shorter and possibly easier reading if the repeated aspects were simply referenced/linked to more specific articles or article sections. --213.216.199.18 01:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Remove tags

There, I have cleaned up the article, fixed tense, and removed OOU as best I could. I would like to submit this article to have the {{OOU}} and {{Tense}} tags removed. I'd feel kind of blasphemous doing it myself, so do we have any other votes? --Culix 02:09, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC)

If you've taken care of the problems, feel free to remove them yourself. Tis what a wiki's all about. MarcK 02:11, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Cool, thanks, done. It looks like SWWiki logged me out though before I hit Save. I don't suppose there is a way to re-credit my login for the change?

'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn'

Edited this out because it didn't have anything to do with the article in question. Whispering 01:35, 3 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Light Side, Dark Side, Force Powers Quotes?

Should the quotes be taken from those articles and added into these sections, or leave it as is?--LandoSystem1138 04:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Main image

Anyone else thing we need a better main image than this? Kuralyov 21:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I liked it when I first saw this page. It was like "Hey, that IS the Force!" (Ulicus 00:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC))
- Well, what picture would you propose? -Lord vader1414 16:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Could use a better caption, though. Doesn't seem that great. Hobbes15^{(Tiger Headquarters)} 00:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Use a picture of Yoda or Luke or someone lifting an object. Like a picture of Yoda lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp. Sith Penguin Lord 20:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You gotta be kidding me

This is all the discussion on the force? the article is huge and has so much info but no one disscuses it --Dumac 03:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's a very well writen article. It has very few mistakes (on purpose, I'd imagine), and very little contriversy. If you have a question, feel free to ask it. -Lord vader1414 17:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Problem with the article

This article is very repetitive, as even certain statements are almost completely duplicated. --Shon Kon Ray 00:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Move to Force?

Subject. - Sikon 09:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

- I don't think so, its never seems to be refered to as force, oh thinking about it force powers etc. hmmmm. I still think stick with the force Jedi Dude 10:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Jedi Orthodox =True nature of the Force

Sure its heavily implied thorughout canon, but since we have stuff like the Potentium and the Gray around to complicate things, should it not be included in the article that the official standpoint is that the Jedi Orthodox philosophy reflects the true nature of the Force?DarthMRN 18:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC) Understanding of the Force requires understanding of all possible arguements that could be made about it, right or wrong. Furthermore, Qui-Gon was believed to be a grey Jedi by some, and yet his view, at odds with the Orthodox, seems to have been referenced as a correct way of viewing the Force as well.

Number of Force users / population

Is there any information on this? How many people have potential on a given planet?

the selection of force potential is completely random and hence cannot be given a percentage.--199.102.47.72 18:06, October 8, 2009 (UTC)lord vader

it really varies. for example, some specis are more prone to force sensitivity so there planet(s) would have more, then sometimes a large number of force users will immigrate somewhere becasue there force users and thus alot of force users on that planets(ex. tython)

Force Using Organizations

Shouldn't the Morgukai be included in the alphabetical listing of Force Users,or are they considered a subcaste of the Sith? Sochwa 07:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well seeing as they didn't use the Force...they shouldn't be either. —Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 13:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Any special reason why Bendu and Bendu Monks are listed separately? How about as to why the Dark Side Elite, Wardens of the Sky, the Iron Knights, Shadow Academy, and the Shapers of Kro Var are not listed? Can Chatos Academy and Shadow Academy really be considered force organizations/traditions? And since "Dark Side Adept" and sometimes "Dark Jedi" are terms used to lump any adherent of the dark side, whether or not they are part of an organization or tradition, how should they be considered?Icepirate 17:22, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Potentium picture

I don't see the relevance between the large caption and the pic of the Jedi. There is nothing connecting the two. --Eyrezer 05:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Unifying Force

What's the definition of the Unifying Force?... theres nothing on the article about it besides being the counterpart of the Living Force.--Gonzalo84 01:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It's mixed in somewhere with the Potentium. That shouldn't be in my oppinion. While the Potentium did believe in the Unifying Force, so did the Jedi Council. It needs it's own section just like the Living Force. Jedigeneral 14:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Symbols

Are there any symbols associated with using the force?--Herbsewell 19:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sunesi View

Under the "different views" of the Force section, somebody should proably include the fact that Sunesi Force-users believe that the Force is a gift to them from the Maker.

First Picture

The first picture of "Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin fighting using the force" looks to be just two fans with their hands out in a city street, why is this there?

Yeah I was looking through the talk page to see if anyone brought it up, it also looks like the background was traffic scene

Alter, Control, and Sense

What happened to them? I recall these concepts being a very important part of the Force for decades (probably as long as the WEG Star Wars RPG has been around), and yet I can't find anything on Wookieepedia about them. Dyne 19:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote

I kinda like the quote "My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is." -Yoda Tru veld 15:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

- I second this quote. Bioevil087 ^{(Mara’s Ex)} 15:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  - Sounds like a good quote to open the article with. --

Kgrimes2 Talk 22:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

This is one of my favorite Yoda quotes and, indeed, Jedi quotes all together. Yoda's teachings were always full of affirmation and came from an intimate knowledge of the Force. My other favorite is: "Do, or do not! There is no try!" --Snartyblartfast 03:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Balance

Should't we add in the introductory paragraph that the Force was brought into balace in 4 ABY, as the article states in the Behind the scenes section that the Jedi view of the Force is the correct one? --Master Starkeiller 15:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also the Dark side philosophy part seems one-sided because not all Sith worked tp increase their own power i.e Jacen Solo.Which is why I placed the template under the headingDarth Rayze 03:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Jacen Solo hasn't worked to increase his own power? Have you read Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice? - JMAS 03:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

All sith eventually end up seeking power. If they no longer want it, they are likely to turn from the dark side, for lust for power sustains it.--216.210.97.64 05:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If you kill all sith the light side of the force will be stronger than the dark. this is not balance! This is —Unsigned comment by Inteligent B1 (talk • contribs)

Greater Force and Lesser Force

The description of these two force types doesn't really include a cohesive definition of each theme independent of the other, nor does it include a cognitive depiction of the interaction between the two forces, how they are used, how they are expressed in the universe, and so on. This section really needs to be clarified.

Yeah, I don't understand it. So are there only four views of the Force (Light, Dark, Potentium, and Living), while the next section about the Philosophy of the Force is separate? It seems like views such as Greater/Lesser Force are parts of the other views of the Force, rather than being its own view. However, Treya's Insidious Force view is probably her own school of thought. So maybe there are five views/theories/schools of thought? -76.105.7.214 08:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Where the heck is this Greater/Lesser Force stuff coming from? In the absence of sources, I would like to move to delete.

I heartily agree with the above, unsigned, statement. From my knowledge on the subject, there is no "greater" or "lesser" Force. Indeed, as stated in the novel "The Force Unleashed," Shaaak Ti even believed that "dark" and "light" were merely "directions"; the Force itself was neutral and only took on the characteristics of either light or dark depending upon the practitioner / life form who used it. This, to me, makes sense since, by definition, the Force is created by, and creates, all living things... which, I would assume, would involve "dark" or "light" living things alike. So, in reality, there is only the Force. Dark or light seems to depend upon the intentions of the practitioner, be they Jedi, Sith or what ever. There is no "greater" or "lesser." There is no reference to back it up, that I'm aware of.

- The certainly exists an out-of-universe perspective among fans regarding a distinction between a Greater and Lesser Force. The Greater Force is the God which created the entire universe, and possesses all other the classic attributes of Western Monotheism (omnibenevolent, omnipotent, eternal, etc). The Lesser Force is similar to concepts such as Qi or Nephesh. This Force does have a light and a dark side, and is generated by all living things. -Rev, Jan. 14th, 2012

Past tense?

Why not use present tense to describe the Force? After all, I see no evidence for the Force actually being gone in canon. And what about the Jedi and Sith? Rickyrab 03:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Because it all happened "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." I'd imagine.

If we were to write discussions just on the Force itself, then yes, we would write in the present tense. Since, however, we are writing about about stories, text and references already written, we are not talking about the Force as we might discuss it now, but how it is discussed, taught or used in the past tense. This is only because, in referencing a story, fictional or non-fictional, you are referencing material that has already been written / discussed / described. Not that it doesn't exist as a current topic for discussion, but the references to which we are referring already exist. --Snartyblartfast 04:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Another view of the force.

I read in a book that there is another type of the force that is not just Light and Dark but more of overall view of the force. One where you can visualize an object and it will appear before you. Is this the Potentium or some other view of the force? --Jedi Xourab 18:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ^MTFBWY

Well, another view of the Force besides Light and Dark would be the gray Jedi, but you probably already knew that. Or a species such as the Miraluka that can see through the Force maybe is what your talking about? Aqua Unasi 22:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe I read it in a book called Rouge PlanetJedi Xourab 18:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd never heard any reference to "Grey Jedi." Now, just from cannon material, what I see on the subject is this:

Both the Jedi and the Sith took extreme views on the Force and its use. The Jedi were to remain dispassionate and aloof, in order that they are not tempted by the Dark Side. They use the Force only to help others and not for personal gain. Attachment (marriage) is forbidden, along with possession. In this manner, the Jedi were kept pure of emotional and ownership ties. The Sith, on the other hand, deliberately invoked passion to utilize the powers of the Force. Since, in a combat situation especially, anger, hatred and murderous wrath are the most extreme of these passions, they allowed themselves these paths toward power in the Force. Just in the two trilogies alone, you can see the stark contrast. Sith openly used the Force for personal gain, power, the obtaining of material possession, and even to prolong life. The Jedi eschewed any such notion. This was evident in Yoda's talk with Annakin concerning the subject of death. "Miss them, do not. Morn them, do not," Yoda told him.

The last bit is the most easy contrast to make between the so-called "Light" and "Dark" sides. The Jedi were taught to accept death as a natural part of life. It wasn't to be mourned nor even feared. The Sith, however, were obsessed with the idea of staving off death forever. This is evident in Annakin's preoccupation with his not having been able to save his mother from her demise and his eventual obsession with premonitions about Padme's death. His inability to accept death as a reality is what ultimately leads him to follow the Dark Side. He is seduced by Palpatine to turn against all he believes in and was taught in order to save a life that was not yet under threat. The irony being, of course, that his fall to the Dark Side precipitates the death he had set out to avoid... that of his beloved wife. Later, as Darth Vader, he experimented with tissue regeneration (The Force Unleashed) and other Frankenstein-like efforts. The further irony here involved Vader becoming more machine than man, the longer he prolonged his own life.

Both sides were hampered by their extreme views. The Jedi's strict rules were, for many, impossible to follow and, in many ways, were a symptom of the order being too aloof. As they served the Senate, the Jedi were a very elite order and, thus, were often out of touch with the realities facing the ordinary people of the galaxy. The Sith, on the other hand, were often those who could not adhere to the hard-nosed Jedi rules, concerning the Force, and who unleashed their inhibitions in its use. Doing so, however, meant their egos went unchecked and they became too blood thirsty for power. Neither extreme is preferable, it would seem, for the fall of Annakin Skywalker is manifestation of this fact enough.

Luke bringing balance to the Force is evident in his own actions. Even before he was introduced to the concept of the Jedi, the Force, etc, he showed what he was made of. When Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were murdered by the Empire, he mourned them internally, but also knew he must move on. Things were happening that were bigger than he was and he had to do his part... what ever that was. Later, Luke was full of woe over Obi-Wan's death at the hands of the Dark Lord, but he decided to soldier on so that his (brief) master's death not be in vain. When Luke learned the identity of his true father, he was initially struck with horror and disbelief, but in the end came to terms with the reality. Ultimately, he decided he could not kill Vader because he was evil, but to try to save the good man who was Annakin Skywalker. When Yoda passed on, Luke felt sad and alone, but he allowed his heart to be calmed by the words of his old master, Obi-Wan's ghost, "Yoda will always be with you."

Luke exhibited the necessity for balance between both of the extremes known as the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the Force. One cannot live, he found, in either extreme but must experience and control both. In that way, he understood and has command over both sides... utilizing the Force as a whole... recognizing the need for equilibrium between the two. In that way, I guess Luke Skywalker could be considered a Grey Jedi, though again, I've never seen or heard any reference to it.--Snartyblartfast 05:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Good points, but I think "control" is a pretty strong word for Luke. I agree, he learned to be powerful in utilizing both light and dark sides, but he gravitated to the light side and did not condone delving/turning to the dark side. He recognized the usefulness the dark side held, but he doesn't appear to regard it merely as tools in a tool box, so to speak, or like pizza vs. enchiladas; he recognized the volatility of delving too far toward the dark side, and even despaired over Jacen's turn toward it. imo, I say grey? maybe, but he's definitely a predominately light disciplined force adept.--Anonyhm 04:39, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Life Extension

Shouldn't something be mentioned on this page about how Force-users(or, at least, Light-side Force-users) have longer lifespans than normal? I seem to recall hearing that some humans have lived 200 years who were Jedi. Is there any specific mention of the extent and nature of this in canon? 152.23.202.133 06:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)Cato

Force Forms

I was browsing Wookieepedia, and couldn't find an article on the Force Forms commonly used by Jedi Consulars (And, possibly, by the Jedi Exile), was I just not thorough enough or does this article need to be created? 84.45.134.188 23:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The article for Force Forms is right here: Force form 96.240.197.145 01:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

i feeel a disturbance...wait...

so i was thinking about KotoR II and how kreia wanted to destroy the force...correct me if im wrong here...would this be conceiveable? or if it were to happen, would the galaxy just fall apart?

Well it seems that if we go by Jedi normal philosophies then everything comes to an end but the most logical is the end of force sensitivity/powers thus end of jedi and sith unless they find a new source of power this won't be much of a blow to species like Humans, rodians etc. They do not depend on the force for daily living. But to species like Miraluka and Felucians this would be a devastating change which can doom them to extinction. Felucians would be helpless and at the mercy of beasts they can no longer tame like rancors. Miraluka would be truly blind unable to see anything.

They could adapt like say Felucians developing higher intellect and Miraluka sharper senses. But it is unknown if this would happen.

All and all if Kreia did succeed great and tragic change would inevitably follow.

--70.45.227.116 16:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Vipa Human--70.45.227.116 16:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Appearances

Since The Force "resides in all life forms" and "binds the Galaxy toghether", doesn't it mean that the Force is present in every single Star Wars story, even wothput any actual Force-users? Because if it's true, then we should stop trying to list every story ever released and replace the Appearances section with All works on Star Wars saga. Mauser 17:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I think a more prudent approach would be to only list works in which the Force is mentioned or shown in action, with an note outlining what you've said above. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 17:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Seems sensible.

Kgrimes2 Talk 22:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

A Question About the Force

Does life have to exist for the Force to exist? Or did the Force pre-date the existence of life? 64.180.93.200 20:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Do jedi need their lightsaber to be able to use the force. Because in many of the shows Anakin is seen to not be able to use any force powers with a lightsaber,even going so far as to just run away when he does not have one

for the life question, its really not know. but light sabers are not at all nessesary for force use. there just the weapon of chocie for virtually all jedi and sith since there creation. before that they had sowrds made of really strong metals, and it didnt diminish force abilites at all. 69.115.204.217 02:55, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

???

Who is the first recorded person/being to use the Force? Jedi Knight Zinquinthia25 04:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

ok i have a complaint about the first phrase, it was Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn who said the force was an energy field that binds us and penetrates us. He says this in Star Wars Episode One, Watch it, i just did and i know he says it.

Inaccurate Info

ok i have a complaint about the first phrase, it was Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn who said the force was an energy field that binds us and penetrates us. He says this in Star Wars Episode One, Watch it, i just did and i know he says it.

You must be young; Obi-wan definitely delivers those words to Luke when he first describes it in ANH. Others have used those same words or similar in the movies, but it was definitely first put to audiences in ANH as you read it.--Anonyhm 20:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Discovery of the Force

Shouldn't there be a segment about the discovery of the force? The first timeline here http://swtor.com/info/holonet/timeline clearly specifies when the force was discovered.

Fifth Force?

I know this isn't official, but I just noticed something. The way the Force has been described, binding, omnipresent, and as an energy field, could the Force be compared to Star Wars' own Fifth Fundamental Force, in a way? --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 21:19, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't sure what you meant at first (had to do some research), but I think in the same context that "our universe" understands/postulates a fifth force, the Force would probably be more appropriately a sixth force. Can you draw other parallels/correlations? If you can, then you might have something worth exploring and including on this page.--Anonyhm 00:58, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

The use of fear?

I've been thinking about this as I've watched the movies and read my books, and the more I reflect on it, the more I feel that "fear" is not an element of either Light or Dark sides directly. True, fear is a path to the Dark side, but the only way it fuels the Dark side is when a said user draws upon said emotion from others who have it; otherwise it seems to be utterly useless to the wielder.

For instance, Dooku comments on Anakin's fear, but then pushes for the other emotions, as if fear was standing in Anakin's way of utilizing the Dark side; obviously fear hinders use of the Light side (not really worth mentioning, I guess), but the only use of fear I can blatantly recall is Bane using the fear of individuals around him for strength, definitely not his own fear. So, sure, that makes fear still a tool of the Dark side, but shouldn't there be a distinction in this article, or would that belong in the Dark side of the Force page if the distinction should be made? idk; whaddya guys think?--Anonyhm 16:56, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Dark Force?

Why is there no mention of the Dark Force in this article? --132.208.197.87 01:27, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

There sort of is a mention. If you notice at the bottom of the page for Dark Force of which you've provided a link, there is a "see also" link to Way of the Dark, which is, in fact, included in this article.--Anonyhm 00:24, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

The Discovery of the Force?

Hi, this has been bugging me. May I ask as to when the Force was discovered, and as to how they knew it was an energy field created by living organisms?

Mortis?

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but I had a thought. As astounding as it is, the planet Mortis is described in that trilogy in TCW as "a conduit for which the entire Force of the universe flows", with The Ones serving, quite literally, as embodiments of the Light and Dark sides of the Force. Given its apparent importance in the cosmic scheme of things, I was thinking we should give it its own section in the article. Anyone agree?--The Shadow Emperor 02:15, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

trying to follow the logic

I am unable to follow the logic connecting the sentence "There is some indication that the Force is unique to the galaxy, and not a universal power" to the sentence "This also explains why the Force was already known to several species before the formation of the Jedi, instead of the galaxy possessing a greater diversity of religions." How does the second "explain" the first? It suggests that the Force is ubiquitous to the galaxy, but not unique to it. Asithol (talk) 01:12, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the second sentence. If someone wants to restore it and explicate how it bears on the idea of the Force being unique to the galaxy, have at it! Asithol (talk) 20:58, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Conflict with Living Force page

The third paragraph of the "Two Aspects of the Force" section states, "It was within the Unifying Force that a Force-practitioner might retain their identities after their physical death, becoming one with the Force and able to manifest themselves as ghosts." But this contradicts the Living Force page, which states, "Through following the Living Force, several Jedi were able to retain their identities after their physical death, becoming one with the Force and able to manifest themselves as Force ghosts." The Unifying Force page makes no mention of this ability. The two claims contradict each other. It should be clarified on the relevant pages whether one or both allow for retaining identity after death and manifesting as a Force ghost. --76.232.195.73 22:37, December 6, 2014 (UTC)