Adding this article to the "Genocides and Massacres" category
The "Post-Great Hyperspace War Counter-invasion" (As it's currently referred to, this article has switched name several times, it used to be called "Sith Holocaust" and after that "Sith Genocide") is treated as a genocide and/or massacre in the sources, and this viewpoint has been confirmed by the creators of said sources
Quoting Daniel Erickson in his interview with Ars Technica: "[The Sith] get chased out of the galaxy. In fact, in the lore, chased to the point where the Jedi believe they are dead. This is very close to genocide!"
Even ignoring that fairly unambiguous confirmation of the event's status as a massacre, bordering on genocide, the event is regularly talked about in the sources with language that confirms it's status as a massacre:
"the handful of surviving Sith desperately sought to escape annihilation" from the Holonet page of the official SWTOR website
"The true Sith were the biological descendants of the ancient red-skinned race native to Korriban. The true Sith were extinct... Except those who fled into exile nine hundred years ago." and "Following the destruction of their ancient civilization on Korriban" from Timeline 11: Rebirth of the Sith Empire
"The Jedi obsession with my people's extermination must end" from the Jedi Knight story in Star Wars: The Old Republic
Timeline 12: The Great Hyperspace War even shows Republic fighters strafing refugees and Republic warships bombing civilians when talking about the event
Furthermore, Wookieepedia has already established this event as a genocide on other articles. In the article "Sith Empire (Post–Great Hyperspace War)" it says "Like the Sith, the Imperial citizens were educated about the end of the Great Hyperspace War and the carnage from the Republic and Jedi holocaust of the Sith people that resulted in the indiscriminate massacre and near extinction of the entire Sith civilization."
The event's status as a massacre is undeniable, it's been confirmed by the creators and there's prior precedence on this. That's why this article belongs in the "Genocides and Massacres" category, and I seems to me that it's exclusion a clear violation of the NPOV policy. --Norraya1631 (talk) 21:16, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
- Out-of-universe TOR sources, particularly Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia, go to great pains to portray the event as anything but a specicide, leaving out explicit mention of Jedi/Republic Military forces exterminating Sith-blooded civilians. Page 110 of the aforementioned work states, "Republic strike squads captured surviving Sith and demolished their centers of power." Note that the verb "captured" is used rather than "annihilated" or "exterminated." Codex Entry: Galactic History 30 reads, "Republic and the Jedi began to purge the remnants of the Sith Empire--obliterating its power centers, destroying its dark teachings and leaving its people without a clear leader." In both cases, the dark-sided structures & Force nexuses are subjected to destruction, but the Sith people remain alive. Supreme Chancellor Pultimo explicitly wanted to keep the Sith people alive & free them from the shackles of the dark side—to quote the same entry, "The Supreme Chancellor and his allies argued that this was not a battle against the Empire's citizenry, but a necessary step to free the Sith from corruption." If Tales of the Jedi – The Sith War 1 is any indication, the Jedi outright refused to kill surrendered Sith Lords of the old Empire & preferred instead to sever their connections to the Force to render them unable to cause further harm. As stated in the Jedi Academy Training Manual, the goal underpinning the counterinvasion was the complete demilitarization of the Empire to ensure that it could never again threaten the Republic, not the extermination of the Sith species.
The various Republic bombing runs & intermittent conflict that appear in various sources & media like the cited Timeline entries are mentioned as being protracted conflict between the Republic & various Sith factions continuing to militarily oppose the occupation of the Sith Worlds. Shar Dakhan is mentioned by The Essential Atlas as having claimed the acting Dark Lordship of the Empire & ordered suicide attacks against the Republic—to quote page 128, "acting Dark Lord Shar Dakhan ordered his warriors into suicide attacks against the invading fleet, inflicting heavy casualties..." Codex Entry: Galactic History 30 further confirms that other Sith factions militarily opposed the Republic during the counterinvasion: "The survivors among the Sith--and they were few, as famine, disease and infighting claimed those who did not continue to face down the Republic--saw it as a deathblow to their culture." As you say, the Jedi and Republic did eventually come to believe the original Sith extinct bar some surviving sects, but this was explicitly stated as being due to mass extinctions mediated by means of starvation, disease, infighting between Sith Lords, continued opposition to the Republic, & (as mentioned on page 128 of The Essential Atlas) ritualistic mass suicides by lower-caste Sith at the Great Hyperspace War's end. Republic/Jedi specicide is not explicitly stated by any source as being a contributing factor, hence its lack of inclusion.
The accounts you mention in which the counterinvasion is described as a specicide occur in-universe, meaning there is a distinct bias in play held by the character(s) recounting the events. The Old Republic: Revan codifies the reconstituted Sith Empire's propaganda account of the events, one in which the Republic's goal during the counterinvasion was officially stated to be the utter extermination of the Sith. This view is subsequently mentioned in the "Jedi Knight" storyline of Star Wars: The Old Republic. The Encyclopedia states that Vitiate intentionally portrayed the event this way to make his followers hell-bent on exacting revenge upon the Republic, thus framing the Great Galactic War as a crusade against a foreign power that had previously exterminated their forebearers during the counterinvasion. This in-universe Sith account of extermination by the Republic is mentioned in this article in several places, but seeing as Wookieepedia requires NPOV & seeing as the bulk of the out-of-universe source & reference books go to great lengths to portray the event as a counterinvasion aimed at the demilitarization of the Empire rather than a specicide of the red Sith, that is the perspective I chose to take in the rewriting of this article. To title it "Sith genocide" is to only acknowledge the Sith Empire's in-universe, one-sided biased perspective on events, a clear violation of NPOV.
In summary, while sources agree that there were a number of civilian casualties during the counterinvasion brought about by Republic-Sith partisan conflict (among other causes like disease, famine, infighting, & ritual suicides), these same sources tacitly indicate that the counterinvasion itself was neither a massacre nor a genocide, as its intended end was the demilitarization of the Sith Empire & the freeing of the Sith from the dark side rather than the extermination of the Sith species. The only instance in which the event is likened to a specicide is an in-universe propaganda account that out-of-universe sources state was created to stoke the anger of the surviving Sith & focus their efforts on destroying the Republic & Jedi.
As an addendum, citing other Wookieepedia articles as evidence is a questionable proposition at best—Wookieepedia has been known to be wrong. This article's original version is a clear example of that fact—for years, it portrayed only the Sith Empire's in-universe perspective on the event & did not include the contrasting out-of-universe canonical information that portrayed events of the counterinvasion in a more balanced, unbiased, NPOV light. The fact that other articles on this wiki continue to mention the counterinvasion as a specicide is simply due to the fact that no one has gotten around to fixing them yet. In general, the only sources that count are published works officially vetted for continuity compliance, not articles on Wookieepedia or unofficial interviews elsewhere. The latter might make for quality "Behind the scenes" meta content, but they generally shouldn't be treated as firsthand sources on the same level of authority as officially licensed published material. If you still take issue with my perspective, I encourage you to cross-reference my extensive sourcing in the article's "Notes and references" section of the article—I intentionally left explicit page numbers to the relevant cited sections specifically so others could corroborate my research.
On an unrelated personal note, it's neat to see another user interested in this particular event & era. This article & other related articles I've drafted have really been labors of love & personal projects for me, given that almost no one else seems to take more than a passing interest in the events following the Great Hyperspace War. It's great to see someone else invested enough in this subject matter to argue the question of categorization with such conviction. Cheers! (: SeboltoTalk 10:47, May 11, 2020 (UTC)- The majority of articles featured in the "Genocides and Massacres" category are not speciescide. It includes many smaller massacres, such as Imperial troops bombing villages. I still hold fast that this event is an act of genocide but the key point is that it doesn't need to be a genocide to be featured in that category.
The question really is quite simple: Did Republic forces kill large amounts of Sith, including civilians? And the answer is undeniably yes.
If the Ritual of Nathema, where eight thousand Sith lords were killed, is considered a massacre and/or genocide, then it's impossible to maintain that this event, that caused the deaths of, at least, tens of thousands of Sith, and, at least, hundreds of thousands of civilians, isn't a massacre/genocide too.
Here's the key point I'm trying to make: The category "Genocides and Massacres" is reserved for any event that involved killing on a large scale. This event qualifies as that.
Also I would like to say that there is no rule on Wookieepedia that mandates that interviews can't be used as sources. Even Tweets are regularly used as sources all over the site. Daniel Erickson confirming that this event was a massacre, borderline a genocide, is more than enough proof to consider this event a massacre, even without all the other sources confirming that the event led to the complete destruction of Sith society and culture (Which, might I add, is the textbook definition of genocide).
PS: Yes, it is very nice to see stuff like this :) I was honestly quite surprised to see how much the article has been expanded in recent times. I remember first reading it three or four years ago, when it was still labelled the "Sith Holocaust", and thinking it was sad how little content there was--Norraya1631 (talk) 16:25, May 11, 2020 (UTC)- I would say that yes, this article belongs within the category in question. Fan26 (Talk) 16:51, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
- If killing on a large scale is the only defining trait of a genocide, then I'd argue basically every war ever fought is a genocide. The unfortunate reality of war is that many, many innocents inadvertently end up as collateral damage, losing their lives as a side effect of armed combat between belligerent factions. I personally would argue that the defining difference between a genocide & a war is the intent to kill civilians—in the former, one side actively pursues the eradication of civilians belonging to an ethno-linguistic group, while in the latter, civilian deaths are a side effect & not the intended aim. The aforementioned sourcebooks seem to indicate that the counterinvasion is an instance of the latter.
Regardless, I will acknowledge you've made some fair points in your argumentation, particularly related to the flexible usage of the genocides and massacres category in a variety of contexts—as such, I've pinged an Administrator nominally associated with the TOR WookieeProject to adjudicate one way or another. Cheers! SeboltoTalk 17:18, May 11, 2020 (UTC) - So, is it fair to say this matter is settled then?--Norraya1631 (talk) 17:20, May 12, 2020 (UTC)
- Since it's been two months since my last reply, I'm going to assume neither of you have any objection to me adding this to the "Genocides and Massacres" category?--Norraya1631 (talk) 08:02, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
- The majority of articles featured in the "Genocides and Massacres" category are not speciescide. It includes many smaller massacres, such as Imperial troops bombing villages. I still hold fast that this event is an act of genocide but the key point is that it doesn't need to be a genocide to be featured in that category.
Sith Diaspora to the Lost Tribe on Kesh
There's a major missing piece in the sith diaspora section, name the Lost Tribe, one of the more significant remnants that carried on sith civilization longer than the rest, lacks even a mention. We should fix that. ZeroSD (talk) 05:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The diaspora section deals specifically with Sith sects that were formed as a direct result of the post–Great Hyperspace War counterinvasion, such as the reconstituted Sith Empire, Sorcerers of Tund, & stealth forces of Thule. The founding members of the Lost Tribe of Sith ended up marooned on Kesh during the Great Hyperspace War, prior to the fall of the Empire & start of the counterinvasion. The Tribe's protracted period of exile & isolation was the result of the Omen's crash landing & subsequent disabling, not the joint Jedi-Republic counterinvasion of the Sith Worlds. In-universe, the original members of the Tribe were completely unaware that the Empire had even fallen, as its members continued to cling to the hope for years after their initial crash that Naga Sadow's agents would eventually locate & rescue them.
- In short, the Tribe & the other Sith diasporas' respective periods of exile, while occurring concurrently, were disconnected events mediated by means of different causes, hence my rationale for excluding mention of the Tribe when writing the section in question. SeboltoTalk 12:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)