Species
Are the Massassi a separate species? I thought they were just mutated members of the Sith species warrior caste? --Imperialles 15:30, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, according to The Essential Guide to Alien Species, they were a pre-existing race on a Sith world.-LtNOWIS 17:15, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The use of the term race should be carefully measured. It use in our society has a long and storied history, and is commonly misused in place of "species" in SciFi work. --SparqMan 17:24, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- So basically the terms "Sith" and "Massassi" can be interchanged? What exactly is the difference between them?
- No no. They are separate species, as far as I am aware. Massassi are burly creatures with red skin, while Sith are more human in appearance, although there are a few differences. --beeurd 20:14, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
- Actually it depends on which Massassi you speak off, initially they were just a cast, but with time they eventually became genetically altered into the beasts they are most commonly seen as. Though it should be mentioned that they were normal Sith far longer than they were mutants.--Sauron18 06:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- No no. They are separate species, as far as I am aware. Massassi are burly creatures with red skin, while Sith are more human in appearance, although there are a few differences. --beeurd 20:14, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
- The Massassi are a caste of the Sith you were mutated with Sith Alchemy.Darth Fernos 16:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
How Long Do they live?
How long is the average lifespand? - Darth Fury
Mutated or Devolved?
We've seen several sources that refer to the Massassi encountered on Yavin IV as a "devolved" version of Sadow's mutated Massassi, and the article seems to interpret this meaning they are further mutations, but the fact that they mentioned the massasi devolving into the form we see in the main picture makes me wonder if that may be what a Sith naturally looks like. Which would explain why the "Pure Sith" species we'd dealt with was so varied and constantly referred to as hybrid rather than pure.
So, I'm unsure whether we can be sure that the Massassi as we saw them on Yavin IV when Kun arrived are mutated versions, since they seem more likely to be essentially like the Sith before the humans mingled with them. I also think I remember Abel Peña stating that he considered the Main image version of Massassi to be the original look, and though this wasn't any sort of official statement it's still worth considering. --Sauron18 23:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- There's no such thing as devolution. Even if something changes into something it used to be, it's still evolution. —Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm just quoting from a source I remember, I believe it was the origianl Essential Chronology (I'll recheck). --Sauron18 02:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Ah! Found it. In the "Dark Side Sourcebook" there is a section in which the Massassi are described as having "Devolved". Still, I am unsure about which bloodline is more pure. --Sauron18 02:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm just quoting from a source I remember, I believe it was the origianl Essential Chronology (I'll recheck). --Sauron18 02:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Extinction of entire subspecies, or just those on Yavin IV?
OK, this is regarding an edit to the article that said the Massassi as a subspecies were extinct. I undid that edit because in a way it has not been said explicitly for the entire subspecies. In The Essential Guide to Alien Species the opening line says "The Massassi people are now extinct, but they were once residents of the world Yavin 4, later home to a Rebel base and subsequently the location of the Jedi academy.". It goes on in the article about the Massassi with Naga Sadow on Yavin IV and how Exar Kun drained the life of their species. However, many things have changed since that was published, for example we now know that not all the Massassi were killed off by Exar Kun. We know that Exar Kun took some Massassi offworld before he drained the life of those on Yavin IV, we know that some Massassi joined the Sorcerers of Tund around the time of the Great Sith War. So it would seem that TEGtAS has been retconned as we know that not all the Massassi were on Yavin IV. And since the book states the Massassi were all wiped out because Exar Kun drained the life of all Massassi on Yavin IV -- effectively making the species extinct, we now know that not to be true, as it has been retconned, therefore it would seem the Massassi as a whole are not extinct, or have not been stated to be extinct. This means, if TEGtES is still canon, then it can only be referring to the Massassi that Exar Kun kept on Yavin IV being extinct. Besides, TEGtAS was based on the research of a person in Star Wars, and not "fact" as such, and should probably be treated as "according to Mammon Hoole" (who was the fictional researcher in Star Wars who gathered all the information on the species) like most of the information in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. That the book was only referring to the Massassi on Yavin IV as being extinct and not overall is backed up by the date it was published, and that it says the planet of origin of the Massassi was Yavin IV and that the only information about the Massassi in it refers to those on Yavin IV -- not giving any sort of hint that the Massassi lived somewhere else -- and it also only refers to the Massassi that Naga Sadow mutated, saying it didn't know much about the original Massassi. Therefore, to conclude this, the Massassi as a subspecies are NOT extinct, those that Kun kept on Yavin IV ARE. What are everybodys thoughts? —Obi-wan Jacobi 
05:39, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
The Massassi's "image"
Most times I come across the mention of Massassi in canon, they are described very much as Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi — The Sith War portrayed them—that is, the mutant type. A notable example of this would probably be Crosscurrent.
Many people who don't have access to the actual canon sources also look to Wookieepedia for descriptions on various things. On the Massassi article, we currently have seven images of Massassi, six of which are the Massassi mutants—including the main image! The one which is a true Massassi (un-mutated), as shown in Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi — The Golden Age of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi: The Fall of the Sith Empire is hardly noticable, especially in black & white. Now, with most people I've met with an interest in Star Wars EU, they also tend to describe Massassi as those of Naga Sadow's mutants, and are shocked to find out that those are not true Massassi.
From my point of view, it seems that all this is related. I think that people look at Wookieepedia, and think "Ohh, that's a Massassi", while they look at the main image, and then they read, associating everything with the majority of the images shown. They probably think the true Massassi picture was just an artist concept, and not what the Massassi really look like, if they even notice it at all. As shown by what seems to be written in canon, it is having an effect on what they write. This article should be made accurate.
Yes, I know that people are a lot more familiar with the mutant Yavin IV Massassi, and there's more information on them. I also realise that the current main image looks like a perfect main image from my point of view. But the point is that these are not true Massassi, and it is misleading, not just to Star Wars fans, but possibly to some Star Wars writers. To be accurate to the subject of Massassi and to avoid misleading people, I suggest that most of the images on this article should be changed to those of "true" Massassi. Furthermore, I think that information regarding the Massassi mutants should not be focused on in the article, as they are just that—mutants, and are only the offspring of one ship full of Massassi. I think all detailed information regarding these mutants should be placed in another article that focuses on them, or at least an obvious section in this article. Canon actually supports this, as the Jedi Academy Training Manual has a section on Massassi abominations, which it describes as being a name for the Yavin IV mutants.
I believe this is entirely necessary, I would like to know what everyone who cares thinks, as I believe it could be a major operation if carried out. Thank you. —Obi–wan Jacobi (Talk) 04:37, December 5, 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more, Jacobi. I am tired of misinformed fans spreading inaccurate information based on this misconception. The main image needs to be changed to the concept-image or one of the MANY excellent depeictions from stills in the 5,000 BBY Tales of the Jedi comic issues. 71.236.203.17 07:18, December 5, 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, mate. I'm glad you support a change. :) —Obi–wan Jacobi
(Talk) 08:27, December 5, 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, mate. I'm glad you support a change. :) —Obi–wan Jacobi
Inaccurate Biology paragraph
"Massassi also had blue blood; quills and bone spurs lined their skin, though this may have been due to Sith Alchemy performed on them by Dark Jedi exiles which had landed on Korriban in 6,900 BBY following their defeat at the Battle of Corbos."
This is just misplaced and inaccurate. The growths, quills, bone spurs and hulking size was due to Naga Sadow's Sith Alchemy. This entire article needs to focus on the species itself in its descriptions, THEN on the abnormal Massassi mutants. Calithlin 00:40, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Supported. It also has speculation in the piece you quoted, which is not allowed unless that was speculated in canon. —Obi–wan Jacobi (Talk) 00:45, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
Pseudo-FA review
Obi-wan Jacobi asked me to take a look at the article and give some feedback on what looks good, what could use some updating. Here, then, are a few ideas for the main editors of the article to keep in mind to help this article's further development. I hope they prove helpful!
- First off, this article has indeed come a long way, and Jacobi and Calithlin deserve most of the credit for that. It's good to see other alien fans out there.
- The first thing I noticed is that the "Appearances" and "Sources" lists don't seem to be completely reflected in the "Notes and references." This is a sign that the article is unfinished, obviously, but it is something to keep in mind. Ideally, every Appearance and Source should be reflected in the notes, indicating that that particular appearance/source has been mined of all useful information on the subspecies. For a species like Massassi or Sith, that can be kind of daunting, simply because there's a huge number of sources and appearances to check. One technique I often use is to create a sandbox page in my user space (like User:SavageBob/Sandbox) where I can list all the appearances and sources for a particular species and cross them out one by one as I check them. Since this appears to be a collaborative project, that might be the best thing to do; if I'm working on a solo project, I'll often just keep a text file on my hard drive instead.
- As you check through the sources, you can either update the article directly, but I find it easier to take notes first, then organize into the main article topics (Biology & appearance, society & culture, etc.), and then start editing. YMMV, of course. :)
- As for the images, I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, if you can find a full-body image of a Massassi for the infobox, that would be ideal. The infobox image should illustrate the species' anatomy as best as possible. I realize that with the Massassi we've got two main types (mutated and non), so it might be a good idea (if possible) to have the infobox image reflect one type and the image that accompanies "Biology and appearance" illustrate the other, thus covering all bases.
- Also, be careful about using concept art images in the main body text; these should only be used in "Behind the scenes" sections. I'm thinking that the image File:MassassiWarrior.jpg probably falls into the realm of concept art, for example.
- Your lead will, of course, have to be beefed up eventually. For a sizeable article, two or three paragraphs is standard. I generally do one on the species' appearance, biology, and society; another on their history and any super-notable members, but this is flexible and do as you feel best.
- OK, now to some nitty-gritty about the content. :) Be careful of dichotomizing the Massassi and "the Sith," since the Massassi are Sith. You might need to distinguish instead by referring to the non-Massassi as the "mainline Sith" or somesuch.
- Stygian Caldera -- what region of the galaxy is this in? Outer Rim? Core Worlds? Probably worth specifying.
- Make sure everything outside of "Behind the scenes" is in the past tense.
- You do this a bit later in the section, but I think it's important to establish how the Massassi differ phenotypically from mainline Sith earlier in the "Biology and appearance" section. Perhaps make it explicit how they are like mainline Sith, then make it explicit how they differ. You can see how I attempted this for the Saurin subspecies article.
- I think there's more you can say about the mutated Massassi. Look at the illustrations of them and describe anything and everything. For example, I see four-digit hands, two-digit toes, claws, spikes all over, knobby hides, a grotesquely muscular torso, hairlike growths about the maw, etc.
- If File:Massassi at the funeral of Marka Ragnos.jpg stays in the article, it might be worth making a cropped version that cuts off some of the banners. Tall, thin images like this have a tendency to break across section heads, which is supposed to be avoided if possible.
- "supposedly primitive" -- primitive according to whom?
- A line or two about typical clothing would be appropriate for "Society and culture". Base it on illustrations if you have to.
- " Since Sith society lasted as such for hundreds of centuries—from roughly 100,000 BBY to 7,000 BBY, it is presumed that the Massassi also had an ancient history." This line sounds speculative, and if it is, it should be removed. Instead, focus on the earliest known Massassi in canon and go from there: "Massassi were active from at least x BBY..." or what have you.
- Did the blood mixing become known as Sith Alchemy or did it become considered part of Sith Alchemy? I always thought SA was wider than simply hybridization programs.
- There are currently some paragraphs that lack source attributions. Be sure that each paragraph (except those in the lead section) has at least one source citation.
- I think it's worth giving a bit more context on Kalgrath on his first mention and how he survived Sadow's machinations.
- Any battle or skirmish probably deserves an article, so you should probably link and stub the skirmish between Eison Gynt and the Massassi.
- The article should discuss Kalgrath's survival as the Night Beast and his encounter with Luke in more detail; probably worth a paragraph.
- Normally, a species article should have a "X in the galaxy" section, but here, I'd argue that the Massassi have been so spread out for so long that it's best to fold all that into "History," as you appear to have done. In other words, no need to change anything in this regard.
- You need a "Behind the scenes" section. Try to mine the author's notes to Tales of the Jedi and Classic Star Wars, read through interviews with the authors of these works, etc. for any information you can find into the process by which the comics and novel creators made the Massassi.
- Over all, this article is shaping up nicely indeed. There are a few areas to fix up, but that's normal for anything on the Wook. Please let me know if you have any questions about my review, and I'll be happy to clarify. This is a tough article to tackle, and I hope you keep it up! :) ~ SavageBob 18:44, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, just remembered: The name "Massassi" has a long provenance in Star Wars lore, dating back to Lucas's original drafts of A New Hope. This is something that should also be explored in the BTS section, going into how the name was used in earlier materials and then became a species at some point. ~ SavageBob 19:08, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
Gear
Add a gear section or something. In Kotor, there are several Massassi items, such as armors. At the same time, there's a "Massassi inspired" outfit in TFU, and the dark-sided Padawan Gynt also wore an outfit similar to the one from TFU. I know all this ain't exactly canon anymore, but it should still be mentioned.--Fekyu 18:05, May 21, 2015 (UTC)