This page
To be honest, I do not think Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order officially needs a separate page from the Jedi Order. How do we know that Luke simply didn't "restore" the previous Jedi Order? He may not have formally started "a new one", similar to the Legends' New Jedi Order, if you understand what I mean. Reddyredcp (talk) 21:43, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I definitely get what you mean. I didn't make this page, but I cleaned it up and sourced it because it seemed like a great idea to me and I believe wholly it should exist. We've gone on MUCH much less info before, but this has tons of exposition from the film, the novelizations, and especially the visual dictionary. Basically, we have a lot to go on, plus it's specifically stated it's a "new generation" of Jedi. I've seen a few edits removing "Jedi Order" from, say, Kylo Ren's page, as he wasn't a member of that (old) Order. Luke was, but based on what's been presented, his teachings should be treated as a new entity/group. I'm sure Episode VIII and IX will enlighten us more eventually. VDO talk 21:46, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I understand where you're coming from. However, are we sure that a new generation of Jedi refers to a new and separate entity? I personally interpret it as new Jedi Knights, not an entirely new organization - if that's the case, Kylo Ren would have technically been a "member of that Order." Though, this may have been already made clear, and I could be missing something. If it hasn't though, hopefully it will be soon! Reddyredcp (talk) 21:53, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- Obviously this is my opinion, but I believe it should be treated as a new entity until we're told otherwise. Because on the opposite end, nothing says Ren had been a member of the old Jedi Order nor that Luke was restoring that old order, so to speak. We're only told it was a new generation of Jedi and that, on top of that, Ren is no Jedi or Sith, a new generation of dark side users (straight from TFAVD). Another thing that the TFAVD says is that the "jedi killer" prevented the return of the Jedi Order; this does not mean it's the same old order, and I give evidence based on the fact that the Galactic Republic died after the Clone Wars and it "returned", too, but as the New Republic with new ideals and new systems (ex. moving the capital around). So this alone should be evidence to treat it as a new body, especially for now, until otherwise is told. VDO talk 21:58, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Reddyredcp. It's too speculative to assume that this is an actual organization and not just a small group of people. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 22:01, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, it could definitely only be a small group of people. That doesn't mean it's not an organization. We know next to nothing about Knights of Ren, but because they were given a specific name, they exist as an article. The only confirmed/known existing member is Kylo, we don't know a thing about the rest, if they even exist anymore. On the other side of the spectrum, we know A LOT about the Lothal rebels, but they don't have a specific name, and they're a very small group of people as well, so they have an article. Yes, we don't have the full details of this new group of Jedi students yet, if ever, but it should be an existing article based on what we do know from the film and books. We have the facts that they indeed existed and have enough evidence in the article to keep it around until told otherwise that it was not the same organization. For that, again I refer back to the "return" of the Republic as a new entity, the Jedi could very well have been (doing) the same. VDO talk 22:12, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that your argument relies on words like "could" is why I have an issue with this page. It should be merged into Jedi until we can actually make an informed decision about whether this is an organization or not. Which is unlike the Lothal rebels, where "Lothal rebels" is terminology used across StarWars.com. So long as we do have this article, though, I've renamed it to remove the assertion that it was an "Order," because that's speculative. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 23:15, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Reddyredcp and Brandon; this article should be merged into Jedi. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that Luke was trying to establish an entirely new Jedi Order, separate and distinct from the Jedi Order. According to his databank profile, Luke's affiliations include the Jedi Order. It further states that he set out to resurrect the Jedi Order. I can see how some people might assume this to mean that he was building a new order to take the place of the old one, but without more information we shouldn't assume that the "new generation of Jedi" means New Jedi Order. JRT2010 (talk) 23:33, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
- This is about this particular group of Jedi. Like it has been said before, we have had separate pages for less in the past. VadertheWhite (talk) 07:29, February 20, 2016 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Reddyredcp and Brandon; this article should be merged into Jedi. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that Luke was trying to establish an entirely new Jedi Order, separate and distinct from the Jedi Order. According to his databank profile, Luke's affiliations include the Jedi Order. It further states that he set out to resurrect the Jedi Order. I can see how some people might assume this to mean that he was building a new order to take the place of the old one, but without more information we shouldn't assume that the "new generation of Jedi" means New Jedi Order. JRT2010 (talk) 23:33, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that your argument relies on words like "could" is why I have an issue with this page. It should be merged into Jedi until we can actually make an informed decision about whether this is an organization or not. Which is unlike the Lothal rebels, where "Lothal rebels" is terminology used across StarWars.com. So long as we do have this article, though, I've renamed it to remove the assertion that it was an "Order," because that's speculative. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 23:15, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, it could definitely only be a small group of people. That doesn't mean it's not an organization. We know next to nothing about Knights of Ren, but because they were given a specific name, they exist as an article. The only confirmed/known existing member is Kylo, we don't know a thing about the rest, if they even exist anymore. On the other side of the spectrum, we know A LOT about the Lothal rebels, but they don't have a specific name, and they're a very small group of people as well, so they have an article. Yes, we don't have the full details of this new group of Jedi students yet, if ever, but it should be an existing article based on what we do know from the film and books. We have the facts that they indeed existed and have enough evidence in the article to keep it around until told otherwise that it was not the same organization. For that, again I refer back to the "return" of the Republic as a new entity, the Jedi could very well have been (doing) the same. VDO talk 22:12, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Reddyredcp. It's too speculative to assume that this is an actual organization and not just a small group of people. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 22:01, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- Obviously this is my opinion, but I believe it should be treated as a new entity until we're told otherwise. Because on the opposite end, nothing says Ren had been a member of the old Jedi Order nor that Luke was restoring that old order, so to speak. We're only told it was a new generation of Jedi and that, on top of that, Ren is no Jedi or Sith, a new generation of dark side users (straight from TFAVD). Another thing that the TFAVD says is that the "jedi killer" prevented the return of the Jedi Order; this does not mean it's the same old order, and I give evidence based on the fact that the Galactic Republic died after the Clone Wars and it "returned", too, but as the New Republic with new ideals and new systems (ex. moving the capital around). So this alone should be evidence to treat it as a new body, especially for now, until otherwise is told. VDO talk 21:58, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I understand where you're coming from. However, are we sure that a new generation of Jedi refers to a new and separate entity? I personally interpret it as new Jedi Knights, not an entirely new organization - if that's the case, Kylo Ren would have technically been a "member of that Order." Though, this may have been already made clear, and I could be missing something. If it hasn't though, hopefully it will be soon! Reddyredcp (talk) 21:53, January 15, 2016 (UTC)
Jedi Order
An image caption in Han Solo's biography gallery (image #31, left to right) refers to Luke Skywalker's Jedi as the new Jedi Order. I think this is sufficient enough to move the article's name to something like Jedi Order (Luke Skywalker), given that the current title is only conjectural. Thoughts? JRT2010 (talk) 23:38, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
- At this point I actually think that this should be merged into Jedi Order. The Last Jedi and its ancillary material, like the Visual Dictionary, don't draw a distinction between the Jedi Order and Luke's Jedi. He speaks in the film as him being a part of the Jedi Order, how he was rebuilding it, and how he felt it was time for it to end. Canonically it seems clear that the Jedi Order, while largely wiped out, was never fully destroyed and the flame of it was kept alive through Luke, and his new generation was a new group of members of the Jedi Order. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 23:48, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, it's something I've been thinking too--Vitus InfinitusTalk 23:53, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
- So do I. It's better than just changing the article's name and continuing to treat Luke's Jedi as a separate group from the Jedi Order, which is not the impression I got from the sources Brandon mentioned. Even Luke's own Databank page lists Jedi Order under his affiliations, so it does seem that while the Order was largely wiped out it ultimately survived through him and even started to flourish (albeit briefly) when he began training students. JRT2010 (talk) 23:59, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
- Does anyone have objections to this merge happening? --Lewisr (talk) 02:16, February 10, 2018 (UTC)
- Not from me. Brandon's reasoning is sound. It's been a few weeks since this discussion was started and no one has raised any objections, so I think now is a good time to go through with the merger. I can't do it now, but if you would like to that's fine too. JRT2010 (talk) 02:36, February 10, 2018 (UTC)
- Does anyone have objections to this merge happening? --Lewisr (talk) 02:16, February 10, 2018 (UTC)
- So do I. It's better than just changing the article's name and continuing to treat Luke's Jedi as a separate group from the Jedi Order, which is not the impression I got from the sources Brandon mentioned. Even Luke's own Databank page lists Jedi Order under his affiliations, so it does seem that while the Order was largely wiped out it ultimately survived through him and even started to flourish (albeit briefly) when he began training students. JRT2010 (talk) 23:59, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, it's something I've been thinking too--Vitus InfinitusTalk 23:53, January 25, 2018 (UTC)