Talk: Jar'Kai/Legends

Jar'Kai name origin

Jar'Kai seems to be the name of an emperor: in X-Wing Alliance, one of the trophy is a pair of Duelling Swords obtained by the Azameen family from a certain "Jar'Kai" emperor...

• It's use as a name for a lightsaber form is from here. jSarek 02:18, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
  • OK.From the article you mention, I note this: "...the Yovshin Swordsmen of the Atrisian Empire, who wielded a dueling sword in each hand, dubbing the weapons "Jar'Kai" after the Kitel Phard city where.....". So, I guess we can admit the name Jar'Kai in X-Wing Alliance refers to the city's emperor. --Isharfoxat 00:07, 21 Oct 2005 (UTC)
    • Remember that the lightsaber forms were introduced AFTER X-wing Alliance was released. - TopAce 22:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Appearances and sources

I've created an Appearances section which is probably far from exhaustive, so please add whatever titles you can think of, in which this form appears.

Someone created a sources section. I don't know if we should keep it, since the article provides a link to lightsaber combat for sources. Also, I'm not sure that there's anything on this form of combat in X-Wing alliance - at least I don't remember that being the case KEJ 17:42, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• But I do remember those two swords mentioned, now that I think about it KEJ 17:46, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Just as TopAce said, "named" lightsaber fighting style were introduced after the release of X-Wing Alliance. In the game, the swords originally belonged to a certain Jar'Kai emperor. As I said, this form may have been inspired by a blade weapon fighting style from -let's suppose- Kitel Phard city, which could have been ruled by the Jar'Kai dynasty --Isharfoxat 14:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Revan

Why is Revan listed twice?

• Why is he listed at all? In Kotor he uses a single blade when he was a sith --Dumac 23:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Check the lightsaber combat style section of Revan's article. Unless you can prove that Revan knew 0% about Jar'Kai, his vision-appearance in KOTOR2 was still canon. Sora Bulq used 1 saber in EP2 too. Darth Kevinmhk 02:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Anakin Skywalker Pic

Do you think we can get a pic of Anakin Skywalker utilising the Form on here? Whenever there's an opportunity to demonstrate something's use in one of the films with a picture, I think it should be done... but maybe that's just me. (Ulicus 00:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC))

The question is, was he using Jar'Kai or just using two sabers? Did he specifically train in the technique? The Force may guide a user in using two weapons, but the specific techniques would need to be learned, otherwise what's the point of having different forms?

• He was using Jar'Kai version of Ataru in EP2, confirmed by Insider 66 Darth Kevinmhk 10:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I already mentioned it in Anakin Skywalker's application on Geonosis was actually based on Form IV swordplay. Because neither Jar'Kai tactic nor Form IV swordplay was the young Jedi's mostly trained style, Count Dooku was able to break through Anakin's array of weapons easily. Darth Kevinmhk 10:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• If you use two blades your either using Jar'Kai or Juyo. --The truth hurts... 20:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Form X?

• I'm sure the names Niman / Jar'Kai have numerous canonical sources to support, but where does "Form X" come from? The article should be moved unless the number was sourced, just like Sokan is now just "Sokan". Darth Kevinmhk 06:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I Agree. In the heroes Guide Web Enhancement where they were first named there was no mention of them being Form VIII, IX or X.Grunny 09:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Kol Skywalker

Now this has been going on for a while, but I would like to ask if Jar'Kai was transfered to the New Jedi Order because it says that Kol Skywalker was a Practicioner of Jar'Kai. And also was any form transfered to the New Jedi Order. Derek Yoda's friend 02:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

• It seems that anytime you pick up two lightsabers, you're using Jar'Kai. So yes, it was used in the New Jedi Order time period, but it's not as if there was anything specific to transfer. -BaronGrackle 22:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Anakin never used Jar'kai

The Fightsaber article in Insider 62 says "Anakin's overconvidence in his own abilities causes him to break out of his usual Form V routine and engage Dooku with the two lightsaber variant of Form IV" So Anakin wasn't using Jar'kai, he was using a two saber variant of Ataru. 151.203.157.175 22:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• In the article it says: "The application of Jar'Kai often exists as a tactic instead of a completely independent style. Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, and Sora Bulq were still applying Vaapad when they fought with two swords. Anakin Skywalker's application on Geonosis was actually based on Form IV swordplay. Because neither Jar'Kai tactic nor Form IV swordplay was the young Jedi's mostly trained style, Count Dooku was easily able to break through Anakin's array of weapons."
  This means that Jar'kai is a two lightsaber variant of all lightsaber style's and that Anakin was using Jar'Kai. --Jedimca0 ^{(Do or Do Not, There is No Try)} 22:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This has no canon basis but I think that all of the basic forms have variants for such preferred styles as dual wielding, double blade, or reverse grip, etc... my theory is that jar'kai uses multiple blade lengths in dual wielding (ie: a shoto and a standard saber) (in the purest sense?). As Darth Maul's lightsaber had independently variable length blades and he was a master of jar'kai this could be considered an extreme example of this theory assuming my thoughts are even remotely correct.

Quinlan Vos and Jar'Kai

Where is a source for Quinlan Vos being a practioner of Jar'Kai? First of all, using two lightsabers does not indicate usage or mastery of Jar'Kai. Secondly, is there a comic that shows Vos using two sabers? Unless there is, I'm moving him to the possible practioners instead of concrete practitioners, if that's alright with you guys.--Jedi Kasra 21:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Answer following up:

In "Rites of Passage", Quinlan Vos is figthing two Mordukai and ends up decapitating one using a double sword move. The Mordukai in question was in the current possesion of Tholme`s saber, and was taken from Vos in the heat of the battle.

There isent material indicating Vos is a particular master of it, but he didnt had any adaptation problems in using two blades from his usual standard Ataru form, so its probable that he knows the basics of the two-saber technique.

Work

This article seems to be dominated by lists and galleries. There is also a lack of source links. This doesn't seem to conform to wiki style. Thank you (- -) 22:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Aayla Secura

The beautiful Aayla could benefit this article if we added a screenshot from Battlefront II where she is wielding two lightsabers. Gustafar 18:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's a good idea, Gustafar.--Jedi Kasra 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Does someone has the game installed? I could reinstall but it'd be better if someone already had it. Gustafar 17:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Sinya?

Why is she in the Possible Practitioners section? She isn't even Force-sensitive, so why should she count as a "possible" Jar'Kai practitioner? Are we also gonna say that Carth Onasi and Zaalbar are possible Jar'Kai practioners because they probably used two swords? Oh, I can't wait 'til Han Solo picks up and uses Leia's and Luke's lightsabers! {note: that was a incredulous statement; don't take that seriously.}--Jedi Kasra 20:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

General comments on the writing of the article

I made some changes to the description text, which were almost immediately reverted.

However: There's a lot of disagreement between present and past tense in the article. Several of the sentences are run-on sentences or are simply not written properly (Such as "With the two single blades, a wielder who could maintain a strong offense, as two blades could keep an opponent wondering which one to shift towards to defend against.") There's also an inconsistent use of his, his/hers, and theirs - the standard is usually either to stick with his throughout, or to use his and hers individually in alternating sections.

I'm not concerned enough to go in and re-edit, but it really kills the credibility of an article when things like that are included.

It also hits the its/it's problem fairly often.

Lorechaser 21:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Darth Wyyrlok

Shouldn't Wyyrlok the third be mentioned in this article? He uses two blades and potentially learned from Krayt. So maybe he should be a possible user of this form.Revan Acolyte88 02:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Kenjutsu connection?

Has it occurred to anyone the possible similarities between Niman/Jar'kai and the dual-sword style often used by samurai in feudal Japan? Think about it: if you use a shoto in one hand, the long saber is a katana, the short one is the wakizashi.

Yes, I'm an otaku. Shut up. StarSword 05:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a pretty good chance kenjutsu was an inspiration, yes. From what I heard, Japan was one of the biggest influences on Star Wars, after countries like Germany. // ~mikah~ 20:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Practitioners

The only characters ever explicitly stated to use Jar'Kai seem to be Boc Aseca, Newar Forrth, Sora Bulq, and Jeng Droga (source is The Dark Forces Saga), Joclad Danva (MedStar I: Battle Surgeons), Darth Maul (NEGC), and possibly Awdrysta Pina and the Dark Underlord (also from The DF Saga).

Personally, I am convinced that the use of two lightsabers is not automatically Jar'Kai, because by that logic, anyone wielding a lightsaber would automatically be using one of the seven forms. Yes, we do see dual blades being wielded in AOTC and SW: TCW, but we cannot know for sure it's Jar'Kai. Heck, we don't even know what Jar'Kai looks like!

Coming to think about it, we do know Anakin wasn't using Jar'Kai in AOTC. He was using "the two lightsaber variant of Form IV" (SWI62). This, in conjunction with Darth Bane: Path of Destruction referring to the use of dual blades as a "variation of the fourth form," suggests that Form IV has an own dual-wielding variant, independent of Jar'Kai.

I think the Practitioners list should be cleaned up accordingly. --Makashi Flourish 11:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

• • It's really time to clean up this mess now. If someone has a source stating that the use of dual blades is automatically considered Jar'Kai, please share it with us. If no, then let's get rid of those unconfirmed practitioners. Makashi Flourish 17:04, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Xendor

In my search for a source that Xendor used Jar'Kai, I've found the following information: In Dark Forces Saga 4, it states "A similar style was practiced by the Royale Macheteros, the elite guard of the Kashi Mer monarchy. When the technique was then co-opted by soldiers of the Legions of Lettow, they called the style Niman after the dual triumvirate of Kashi gods." Xendor was the leader of the Legion of Lettow. In addition, this same source states that "the Dark Underlord insisted on using twin Sith Swords despite being outmoded by the time of the New Sith Wars." The source Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties states "[o]thers even speculated that the Dark Underlord was the spirit of the Lettow general Xendor himself."

So, it would seem that the only sources are indirect; the Legion of Lettow used Jar'Kai, and Xendor was the leader; furthermore, the Dark Underlord used it, and he was rumored to be the spirit of Xendor, which, despite being a rumor, might suggest that Xendor was known to use Jar'Kai. I'm not sure if the indirectness of the sources would qualify as Original Research or otherwise are unfit to be used as sources, so I haven't added them. Thoughts? Crash Override 08:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• Firstly, let me congratulate you for your very interesting and thoughtful research. Even then, I'm afraid I feel prone to discuss some details here:

the technique was then co-opted by soldiers of the Legions of Lettow — I am not sure about the command structure of the Legions of Lettow, but we can assume that, like many military units in the Galaxy, it might be composed by soldiers and commissioned officers. Xendor, as the leader of the Legion, is probably an officer or the commander-in-chief. What I mean is that Xendor is not neccessarily a soldier of the Legion, and thus is not exactly covered by the sentence about soldiers of the Legion using this martial art — unless, of course, there's something about it that I've missed.

The Dark Underlord: An in-universe rumor doesn't seem categorical enough, at least to me. The speculating [o]thers in the source (which I have not checked) might even be unreliable, supersticious low-level Sith soldiers. If the Dark Underlord was Xendor's reincarnation, he could still have learned Jar'Kai after having reborn, and thus Xendor would have been unfamiliar with it. However, if the Underlord was literally Xendor's Force ghost gone solid somehow, if both are literally one and the same, then Xendor would have know Jar'Kai.

My only point is, there's still reasonable doubt about Xendor's two-hand skill, true? I think Mr. X's worth a BtS note with the sources Crash Overrid3 has researched but, as the topic is ambiguous at best, it should not remain in the body of the article. Just my opinion. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• I'm happy to see that Dark Underlord is in the article with a source. On the other hand, I'm less comfortable about "possible" practitioners and have tried my darndest to purge them from the three saber form FAs unless there's a really good source hinting at possible usage. I'd be much more at ease with just leaving Xendor out of it, while mentioning the usage by the Legions of Lettow instead. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 16:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• After looking into it further, there's no source that directly states that Xendor utilized Niman/Jar'Kai. It seems to be an inference derived from the fact that he was of the Kashi Mer Dynasty, whose elite guard practiced it; and that he founded the Legions of Lettow, which also utilized it. The inference being that he knew the form from being of the Kashi Mer Dynasty, and was the one who introduced it to the Legion of Lettow, which he also he created. The fact that he was rumored to be the Dark Underlord, who was known to practice it, I suppose reinforces this inference. Is that sufficient evidence to have him listed? If not, he should probably be removed until a new source is uncovered or released that confirms it. Barringer 04:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
  • IMHO, I think we are assuming too much by saying that Xendor knew Jar'Kai, following Wookieepedia's policy about original research. I can understand the deductions, but they seem fallacious to me: Canonically, Xendor still might either know Jar'Kai or not. I propose his removal or the mention of our debate in BtS. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Double bladed verison

Can you use a two Double-Bladed Lightsabers in this form because that would be cool. If not what would that be. ~ 76.17.157.235 04:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Practitioner sorting

Hi, I'm new here, and I just finished looking at the article and discussion topics. First thing I noticed about the article was the sloppy practitioners section, and I have a suggestion to solve the problem. Sort all the individuals into three categories of practioner. The categories could be Frequent practitioners; for those who use it all the time, like Asajj Ventress or Sora Bulq; Occational practitioners, for those who use it on an on-and-off basis, like Aayla Secura or Kas'im; and Circumstantal practitioners, for those who only use it when either the need arises, or their able to get a second blade, like Kit Fisto or Anakin Skywalker, or those two Jedi I spotted in the background of the Geonosis arena battle.

Course, this is just my suggestion, and I'm more than open to others. Jensaarai 04:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Move to Jar'Kai?

Shouldn't the article be moved to simply 'Jar'Kai'? I mean, yeah, it incorporates elements of Niman, but it also does the same for Ataru and that isn't in the article title. Anyone else think it should be moved to Jar'Kai? Ruthless Xero 17:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I would support that. Jensaarai 03:33, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

• I think that's a good idea.204.249.194.210 23:45, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

• I agree. —C Teng^(talk) 00:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Main Image

I must object to the current main image of Anakin Skywalker. Granted it is a live-action image, but its not an image of the style being used in combat, nor an image of a specialist practitioner. Those are two criteria that I feel must be met for an image to qualify as the main image on an article about a form of combat. Jensaarai 02:53, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Ahsoka as practitioner

Considering there's been disagreements in edit history if she is to be included in the article or not and how, I would kindly ask all related attitions to be well sourced and preferably her inclusion explained here once, to prevent future edit wars. –Tm_T ^(Talk) 08:18, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Martial Art?

Shouldn't this article be added to the category martial arts?, as that is what Jar'Kai is, as Form IV: Niman is purely lightsaber combat, whereas this is dual-wielding any sort of blades --DK Wolf 27 ^Commlink 23:02, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Saga edition RPG reference

At the end of the article it is mentioned that "oddly" the Jar'Kai talent is not a pre-requisite for dual wielding lightsabers. The reason for this is the Jar'Kai talent in the Jedi Knight prestige class represents the mastery of the form, not just the use of it (this is mentioned in a document called Jedi Counceling, which unfortunately I can't find right now), this also follows logicaly from the fact that you can't take any of the lightsaber form talents untill level 8, but clearly you still wield a lightsaber and, therefore, must be using atleast the basics of one of the forms (most likely Shii-cho or Niman for new students) before you gained the Form Talent. This is a very easy mistake to make, indeed I did it myself when I first read those rules.

It should also be noted that Niman is not a pre-requisite for the two weapon fighting feats (those pre-reqs being A dexterity score of a certain level and a required level of base attack bonus).

Hope that's helpful

77.98.207.215 15:09, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Accesability

Hypothetical situation, a star wars newbie just played jka and they were curious about jar'kai but all they know is the name dual blades for this style. there needs to a redirect for this page to make it more accesable to newbs. Fire-lord (If no one talks thing out, how will we ever have world peace?) ; 00:34, June 13, 2012 (UTC)