Talk: Imperial remnant (Cold War)

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Article alterations

It has come to my attention that this article may benefit from either additional or alternative information. As we do know, the Cold War was a legitimate canonical conflict between the New Republic and this group. However, how much do we actually know about it? While this article has little to no speculative elements per se, I have a question: do we actually know that this is actually one organization? For all we know, it could be a loose group of various remnant factions or a legitimate government. Additionally, the remnant during the Cold War could refer to a then-unspecified group that has since been brought back into canon, such as Rae Sloane's Imperial remnant or even the remnant in the Core. Heck, for all we know it could be the Pentastar Alignment, just weeks away from being brought back into canon. While I do think this article is useful, as the remnant was an important part of post-war galactic geopolitics, we need to be sure of its actual status. Personally, I do not own the visual dictionary, but I am aware of the information inside it. Does anyone happen to know the terminology used to refer to the faction engaged in the Cold War? Specifically, is it singular or plural?

I also have some ideas for possible alternative names for this article. While I think the title we have now is useful in distinguishing this group from other Imperial remnants, as it specifies that it was what participated in the Cold war, there are some other terms that could work better. If this is not one group, but a loose organization or alliance of loyalists from various factions, we could rename it "Imperial hard-liners". If it is a singular group, we could rename it "Hard-liner remnant", as they actually get the point across just as well as the current title, but in a different way.

Last, but not least, I am in favor of potentially connecting this article to the Restored Empire, as they share many similarities. Both are referred to as "the hardliners"; both refused to join the Imperial remnant; both were fanatical believers in the Old Empire, and both refused to make peace with the New Republic. This is just a suggestion. I just thought it might be fun.

Anyway, I think that this is an important topic to discuss, so I would appreciate some feedback from fellow editors, seeing as this is a somewhat important topic to handle. Darth Ravigious (talk) 16:54, July 31, 2017 (UTC)

  • The visual guide says 'The Old Empire withered away, becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic'. So I think keeping it as a remnant is fine --Lewisr (talk) 16:58, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
    • So is it safe to say that it is a separate group than the remnant in the Inner Rim? Darth Ravigious (talk) 17:55, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
      • There's not enough information to be safe about it, this Imperial remnant could be the combination of multiple remanants or a specific one. We can't be sure until more information comes out about. About the Inner Core remnant there's not enough information about besides the short sentence in Lost Stars so I wouldn't expect too much information about it since what happened after Jakku is unclear--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 18:05, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
        • Which is exactly why I was in favor of possibly changing the wording to make it sound more plural, as the word "hard-liners" was used, with an s. I think it wouldn't matter either way, personally, but I just wanted to make the suggestion in order for us to have more options available in terms of overal article improvement. Also, the word "harliners" is used. This faction is described almost exactly like the Restored Empire in terms of both action and narrative function. I propose that we link both articles. Darth Ravigious (talk) 18:51, July 31, 2017 (UTC)

Title

Would this page's title not be considered conjecture because its title is "Imperial remnant (cold war)"? All other remnants' titles are conjectural because they weren't given an actual title to begin with. --Erebus Chronus (talk) 19:42, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

  • Can't remember if it was referred to as 'Imperial remnant' in Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary, if not then adding the conjecture tag is okay --Lewisr (talk) 19:45, December 31, 2019 (UTC)
    • This is the only thing I could find, I quote page 8: "The First Order: The Galactic Concordance defanged the Empire's ability to wage war, with strict disarmament treaties and punishing reparations. The Old Empire withered away, becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic, before eventually breaking away to reform in the Unknown Regions as the mysterious First Order." It's hard to understand if it's indicating whether or not it would be called the Cold War Imperial remnant. You can make the call, but to me, I say it's completely conjectural. --Erebus Chronus (talk) 20:09, December 31, 2019 (UTC)
      • Yeah that's conjectural then in that case, feel free to add it --Lewisr (talk) 20:12, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

Calling into question its existence

Can we really say with certainty that this Imperial remnant exists?

The only source for its existence is The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary. The text reads that the Old Empire withered away into a "remnant of political hardliners" that locked into a "cold war" with the New Republic before they "broke away into the Unknown Regions," where they reformed into the First Order.

Source material that has come out since then has revealed the Centrists, which were a faction in the New Republic comprised of former Imperial hardliners, loyalists, and dreamers, and that these Centrists star systems seceded from the New Republic to "publicly form" the First Order. It seems that the use of the term "remnant" in The Visual Dictionary was interpreted to refer to an "Imperial remnant" rather than the literal meaning of the term remnant itself, which is likely what the Centrists are: those leftover Imperials. The "cold war" is not capitalized in The Visual Dictionary, so this could simply refer to the polarization between the Centrists and the Populists and the subsequent political gridlock from Bloodline.

The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary reveals that the proper Cold War only began between the New Republic when the Centrists seceded to "form" the First Order. That is, this "remnant" of Imperial hardliners "broke away" from the New Republic to reform into the First Order. No other source material has referred to a "Cold War Imperial remnant," or an "Imperial remnant" during the proper "Cold War," which began later between the First Order and the New Republic, or there being two "Cold Wars" that took place, one between the New Republic and an Imperial remnant, and another with the First Order.

I understand that a lot of my argument here is technically speculation based on my own reasoning, but frankly, I find this article to be built on dubious foundations at best. So, I think it's worth consideration. At the very least, if we want to stick with a very strict interpretation of the text from The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary, the "Cold War" should not be capitalized in the title of this article. There is no source for that name, and if there is, it should be identified in this article (I have not found it in The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary).

Furthermore, the proper Cold War took place between the First Order and the New Republic, as identified in numerous source materials. There is no source that it took place between an unnamed Imperial remnant and the New Republic. At least, as far as I am aware; please do correct me if I am mistaken.

Thanks. Reddyredcp (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  • Agreed, there was a real lack of concrete clear information on the formation of the First Order back in 2015 for obvious reasons, but as time has gone it's become more clear. Our coverage on this is somewhat confusing tbh Lewisr (talk) 03:42, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
  • This page really shouldn't exist, further information has basically clarified that this is just the Centrists, and that the "Cold War" was involved First Order. If no one has objections, I will merge the page with Centrists. ThrawnChiss7 Mitth symbol Assembly Cupola 14:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
    • As the OP, no objections on my part. Do I need to start a discussion in the Trash Compactor forum, or is it okay to go forward with this merge if there are no further objections or clarifications of sources? Reddyredcp (talk) 20:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)