Talk: Form VI/Legends

Niman--there seem to be two separate Nimans:

1) Form VI (most of this article)--one lightsabre, Coleman style 2) Jer'krai (the last paragraph)--two lightsabres, Boc Aseca style

Why was the GIF image removed?

I like that animated GIF. It allows people to actually see Form VI being used, and, if you ask me, it enhances the article, since with it, people can see a demostration of this Form in action. In my oppinion, I think all the Lightsaber Form articles should have such a GIF so that people can actually see each form in action, rather than just looking at boring, non-animated pictures. Personally, I think the articles for the other Forms would be far better if you could actually see each form being used (by adding animated GIF images). But hey, what do I know, right? I'm just a Frelling anon. But then again, Starkeiller, an actual registered user, didn't seem to mind having a GIF on this article, since he added a link to Jango Fett in the caption for that GIF...151.203.185.180 18:31, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)

• We aren't racists here, anon. Anons are sometimes treated badly because it's anons that harass the site, the kriffin' vandals. I agree with Frelling Anon (it's a nice nick). The GIF image added to the article. --Master Starkeiller 19:33, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• The articles on lightsaber combat may prosper better with GIFs, but the current one doesn't seem to present any benefits to the article. It just shows Trebor getting shot. If anything, it appears to make Niman look like a bad lightsaber choice. -- SFH 19:54, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• I think it demonstrates the flaws of Niman, after all, the article itself does say "...Form VI practitioner Coleman Trebor, whose technique could not defend against Jango Fett's masterfully placed blaster shots...". But if someone can get a GIF that shows a better example of Niman, then thats good too..151.203.185.180 20:02, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • A decision was made not to use the animated GIFs, as they are distracting and cheesy. It should be removed. QuentinGeorge 20:58, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• Who made that decision? I see two registered users right here who think it's a good idea, and two anonymous users, including myself, who think it's a good idea. The Lightsaber Combat pages would greatly benefit from having animations on them. That way, people can actually watch Windu using Vaapad, instead of simply looking at a still picture. Or watch Yoda demonstrate his mastery of Ataru, etc. It would be great to actually watch the different lightsaber forms in action using animated gifs, and would improve the pages by actually letting people watch examples of what the pages are describing. 70.17.151.54 22:29, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• Well, QuentinGeorge is an admin, so he and the rest of the admins have the final say. -- SFH 22:31, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • The decision was made a while back not to use animated gifs as they were far too distracting and didn't suit the encyclopedia. QuentinGeorge 22:41, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• Personally, I think that gifs would suit the Lightsaber Forms pages perfectly(for all of the above reasons). How about just using gifs to improve the pages for the lightsaber forms, and not using them anywhere else? 70.17.151.54 22:56, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, I'm going to put in my two cents, since I was the one that actually removed the GIF. The reason I removed it was because last time a user (Cato Neimoidia in particular) uploaded GIFs like that to use in articles, all of them were quickly removed. I'm not as seasoned as some of the Wookieepedians around here, but I definitely agree with Quentin that the GIFs are distracting and detract from the actual encyclopedic nature of this website. If some of you do feel that they have some value to the topic they display, I would recommend linking to a separate site that has them. I just feel that they have no place within the articles themselves. But I'll leave the actual decisions regarding this topic to the Admins and more established members of this community. That's all I have to say.--Knightfall 23:10, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
• If you want, we can put up a discussion on the Community Portal with regards to the use of animated GIFs. QuentinGeorge 23:15, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • Let's do that! - TopAce 17:53, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Padawan Lumis Etima

• Alright, either someone source "Lumis Etima used Form VI", or else we should remove him / her from the article. Thx. Darth Kevinmhk 15:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
  • His article says "he did use Niman," which pretty clearly says he was a Niman practitioner, if Coleman is to be removed, having him instead of Coleman would be a good choice (assuming there is a source which says he used Niman) - TopAce 10:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I disagree, his article has no source at all. I doubt it is canon. Darth Kevinmhk 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Weak style?

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that the way this article is written suggests that Niman is a weak form? Where does that come from that it was the standard style anyway? If it was the most common, it is rather ironical that we only know about ONE user, while we know more users about Makashi, which was the "rarest" of all standard forms? - TopAce 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• The public view Form VI as weak because all Form VI users during the battle of Geonosis died. 100%, no survivors. Source: Insider 62. We can only confirm one user because Star Wars stories often focus on powerful main characters :) Darth Kevinmhk 03:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In KOTOR2 it's definitely deemed a strong style (and in the game it actually proves to be strong). My theory for the failure of the practitioners in the arena is as follows. We can assume that the survivors were practitioners of Soresu, Ataru, and Djem So, because these are the most frequently mentioned styles which are favored by Jedi of the time (except for Mace Windu of course). Soresu and Djem So focus intensively on the deflection of blaster bolts, and Ataru may have proven effective against the 'dull' droids because of its swiftness, unpredictable Force Jumps and quick evasive movements. Form VI failed because it didn't focus so intensively on blaster bolt deflections, and the battle in the arena can be considered an extremely 'blaster-dense' situation, in which only the above mentioned forms could prevail, for the reasons that I have already written. This is just a theory though. --Domlith 23:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• it was the weakest combat style

• • "The public view Form VI as weak because all Form VI users during the battle of Geonosis died. 100%, no survivors" It wasn't just the public view. Insider 62 says that Jedi who use other forms viewed Form VI as being "Insufficiently demanding", which to me means the same as saying that Form VI is weak. 70.17.145.93 00:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I disagree. If a Form VI users work extra hard to keep training - not spending time to learn politics, for eg - i believe they can redeem Form VI's reputation. Apart from the style, Insider implies VI user dont train hard/long too, so I think we cant just blame the style itself. Darth Kevinmhk 04:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I suppose your right. I actually like the idea of Hybrid Martial Arts, so the idea that Form VI is a hybrid of all the other forms sounds really cool to me, as long as it is an effective form, which I suppose it could be if one trained hard enough. 70.17.145.93 05:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
        • is it possible that we are viewing the form the wrong way? yes 100% died, but they were Jedi who were perhaps political etc. If a Jedi mastered this form that they would have the best blend of the mixed forms, the defensive properties of III the aggresivness of Ataru etc. Jedi Dude
          • Not only Form VI practitioners died during the Battle of Geonosis, that's the wrong way we are viewing it. Do not forget that the Jedi were overwhelmed during the battle, even for Soresu or Djem So standards. Also do not forget that Jedi during the Jedi Civil War era were more centered around combat, most having fought in the Mandalorian Wars previously. Jedi around the time of the Clone Wars were not as experienced combatants, the Geonosis Arena battle was something the Jedi were not prepared against. The Niman could be a good form, but not in a situation when you are overwhelmed at least ten to one.- TopAce 12:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not that Niman was weak for if it was it would not be so popular. The reason so many Niman users died at Geonosis is because that form responds by thinking about your next move unlike Soresu or Djem So where you just react. Form III, IV, and V users were saved because their forms taught them to react quickly and on instinct.

• • • • • • • My opinion is simple: Niman can be a good form, if and only if the user treat it like other forms, and train it as hard and as long as other users of other forms. But as the Insider implies that the Niman course is a short one, it is the Jedi teachers' fault instead of the style's fault, since it is the instructor who made the course that way. Darth Kevinmhk 13:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• well then this article is in need of major chnages, because otherwise the article gives the impression that this is a weak style, this needs change. Jedi Dude
  • I dont think so, we dont have enough canonical facts to prove that Niman is really as gd as other forms even if they train hard. Darth Kevinmhk 13:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• but do we have enough evidence to say that it is definalty weaker than the other forms? don't say Geonosis...Jedi Dude
  • Review both this article and the Insider article, and I just made some changes. See if it fits. Darth Kevinmhk 13:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Better - TopAce 13:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have a problem: Only around 200 Jedi were dispatched to Geonosis, so a lot of others were still in the other parts of the galaxy. Within these suvivors, were there still any Form VI users?

--Darthless 01:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• • All the confirmed users are already listed in the article. Darth Kevinmhk 02:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem is with how long one studies it. Most practitioners only speend about five years which may be enough for one of the other forms, but for Niman to be highly effective it takes at least ten years. This extra time is needed to master the form to a point of effectiveness with other forms as an actual combat style. Most practitioners who focused on diplomacy did not study it in depth enough.

• it is a weak combat form. instead on focusing on one form. they spend a little bit of time on a few forms, not mastering any of them. all the nimans died on geonosis. thats a very strong fact that it's a weak form for combat
  • Well, think about it this way. The Niman form would have arguably been the most suitable to accomplish what Coleman Trebor was attempting to do. Why? Because that spunky Jedi placed himself in a position to take on Dooku (a Force master and lightsaber duelist), Jango (an incredibly accurate blaster jockey), Poggle's nearby Geonosians (melee fliers) and possibly some stray battledroids (blaster minions). Relying on the guide in my KOTOR2 manual (p. 26), Niman form's ability to repel blaster fire is less effective than only Soresu (Obi-Wan's) and Shien/Djem So (Anakin's), while it is equal to Shii-Cho (Kit Fisto's) and SUPERIOR to Makashi (Dooku's), Ataru (Yoda's), and Juyo/Vaapad (Mace-freakin'-Windo, who killed Jango anyway). Out of the two forms that are superior anti-blasters, Soresu is terrible against many enemies while Shien is terrible against a single enemy... now, consider that Trebor was killed by a single enemy's attack but could have just as easily been swarmed by several other opponents, each with different combat styles. And if he managed to actually face Dooku in combat, the Niman form would have been more useful against Dooku's lightsaber than any form except Makashi or Vaapad, and it would have been more useful against Dooku's Force powers than anything else other than Makashi itself. This is why I maintain that if Trebor was a Niman user, he really should have practiced more.
    

As for all of the Niman users dying at Geonosis, I agree with Domlith and Darth Kevinmhk that the best canon explanation is that they simply didn't focus enough on training. By sheer statistics of the chart, it's a wonder that the Ataru users weren't all butchered as they landed (it has "Poor" rankings for both "Many Enemies" and "Opponent-Blaster"). Even our article here claims Ataru "did not work well againt multiple opponents, and it was ineffective against blaster fire. This form was also probably not effective for prolonged combat, as the nature of Ataru could greatly tax the body." How any of these guys lasted through the onslaught of Geonosis is a miracle of the Force... looking at the list, though, it looks like it was just Yoda and Aayla Secura there, and Yoda wasn't even fighting. So just Aayla. Imagine what would have happened if all the Geonosis Jedi had been Makashi or Ataru, the sheer slaughter it would have been. What a massacre. -BaronGrackle 02:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • The chart of lightsaber forms in KotOR II is partially game mechanics. Now, what Kreia says is canon, but the chart is not a very reliable source. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 20:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Ah, but what do the mechanics of that chart reflect? Okay at everything, but not great at anything. Exactly what Niman is described as, in every source. No source claims that Niman is terrible at deflecting blaster bolts; they all just say it's okay at it. In contrast, forms like Makashi and Ataru have been described as particularly weak in that area. By comparison, this means Niman is superior to them in that regard. -BaronGrackle 03:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
        • All I am saying is that we cannot make concrete statements about whether one form is better than another, because that's like comparing say, in RL, Tae Kwon Do and Jujitsu. It depends largely on circumstances and the user. We can say Niman was generally more suited for Blaster Bolt Deflection than Ataru, but not "Niman users were more likely to survived blaster attacks than Ataru users." Just wanted to make that clear, is all. For example, I don't think that no Niman users survived the Battle of Geonosis just because the form was weak- I just think the Niman users there were not very good combatants. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 05:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't blame anyone for the impression that this style is weak. It's a style that isn't expressed a lot in the movies as well as the canon expended universe. It's obscure depiction makes it somewhat unfavoured by people because they don't have a figure for which to relate too (i.e. Anakin - Form V, Dooku - Form II). Furthermore, the Insider article stating that all Niman practitioners died in the Geonosis Arena was no help to portray the style's potential. Equally useless was the scene in RoTS where Darth Vader cuts down Cin Drallig moments after dispatching two Padawans (RoTS novelization) despite that Cin was a lightsaber instructor and one of the acknowledged authority of form VI. In retrospect, I haven't seen/read a form VI practitioner that truly depicts what is stated in the article. As for the deaths at Geonosis, I agree that there's a high chance that most of them perished due to the sheer firepower against them rather than the style being weak. After all, most of the Jedi that survived were quite powerful Jedis within the Order (Mace, Plo Koon, Sora Bulq, Obi-Wan etc...u get the picture). -Naz- ....

• It isn't a weak style. The Knights and Padawans that used it were surrounded by hundreds upon hundreds of battle droids and If you notcied, besides Anakin, only a handful of the greatest Knights and the Masters survived the assualt.

Jango Fett was able to break through Trebor Coleman's defense because he utilised a system of offense against a lightsaber with a blaster developed by his people, who used these same techniques all the other times they fought Jedi with blasters and weren't wiped out - because they were using the same technique Jango used to defeat Coleman Trebor. Trebor by the way has been sourced to be a Niman practioner, but I had thought this was obvious. --The truth hurts... 20:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Niman is described as lacking "drastic strengths", therefore a practitioner would have to use their own initiative and creativity to defeat an opponent. E.g. A Niman user would have to improvise in order to defeat a dominating Djem So opponent. Personally, Niman is my favourite form. Darth Raivon 16:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, Diplomats are problem solvers. Therefore a Niman practitioner possesses supreme adaptability, but must out-smart their opponent. Example: Niman master vs Djem So master. Djem So batters Niman with strong attacks: Niman blocks the first strike with a Soresu technique, then parries the second attack with a Shien technique followed by an Ataru counter-attack etc. By applying the right technique from the appropriate form at the right moment, a Niman user can counter anything that opposes them, the rest is left to circumstance. Darth Raivon 11:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Niman is Old English

From wiktionary:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niman

Do you think there is a connection between the two or this is just a coincidence? - TopAce 11:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thz for the notice. The only relation I could think of is Star Wars Niman could mean a certain god in some area, which suits the "Old" theme a little bit... Darth Kevinmhk 11:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Coleman Trebor

• Alright, here comes the blast: There is NO, repeat, No source which really / directly state Coleman Trebor is a Form VI user. So unless someone provide a source, I guess we would have to remove the only (presumed) user of Niman from the article. Darth Kevinmhk 13:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Where did you look? - TopAce 14:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Sources looked: Clone Wars Novels, EP2 & 3 Novels, EP2 & 3 Visual Dict, Fightsaber article, Ultimate Visual Guide, New Essential Guide to Characters, Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Hero's Guide, OS Databanks... Feel free to provide if you indeed find a source which states Coleman is a Form VI user! Darth Kevinmhk 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
      • So, who thinks he should be removed? - TopAce 10:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Problem solved: Coleman was removed due to lack of source, Cin Drallig was added due to new source. Insider 87: "he (Cin) taught the basics of lightsaber combat forms one through six to thousands of students". Woo! Cin knew Forms I to VI! Powerful! Darth Kevinmhk 14:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Niman in Kotor2

• As Wookieepedia now considers the official guide of KOTOR2 to be a canonical source, thus we have Zez-Kai Ell as Ataru master, Vrook Lamar as Shien master, and Karvar as Juyo master. I haven't played the game or own the guide, so does anyone know who was the Form VI: Niman master in KOTOR2 so that his/her name can be added in this pathetic little list? Darth Kevinmhk 09:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Niman is only taught to the Exile if she is a Jedi Consular/Master, so keeping Niman out of canonical KotOR suggests that the Exile was indeed a Jedi Guardian. This hasn't answered your question, though. :) - TopAce 09:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I dont quite understand, you mean the official game guide did not mention who could teach the Exile Niman? Darth Kevinmhk 09:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Oh and by the way TopAce, do you know the game / guide mention any Jedi Master being Makashi or Soresu users? Darth Kevinmhk 09:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I was talking about the game, not the guide. In the game, you can have a prestige class called the Jedi Master, which is kind of an advanced Jedi Consular. If you are a Jedi Consular or it's prestige class of Jedi Master, it's not Juyo that you learn from the last of the Masters that you find, but Niman. As far as I gathered from what was said in the game guide, it doesn't mention that the Exile has learned Niman. If the Exile is a Jedi Guardian (or its prestige class of Jedi Weaponmaster) or a Jedi Sentinel (or its prestige class of Jedi Watchman), then its Juyo that the last of the Masters teaches her, not Niman. This suggests that the Exile wasn't a Jedi Consular or its prestige counterpart, the Jedi Master. Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu are learned as you level up, whichever class you are, whatever order you visit planets. It's only dumb gameplay mechanism. As for the other Masters using/practicing Soresu and Makashi, I cannot answer your question. - TopAce 10:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong! Niman is only taught to Jedi Sentinels, Jedi Watchmen, and Sith Assassins. Consulars and Masters learn Force Forms. BTW, Master Lonna Vash was probably the Niman practitioner. Darth Raivon 19:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Niman is also Japanese...

Niman is 20,000 in Japanese. This probably irrelevent but it could mean something. yes he is right on youtube there is a video [KOTOR 2 M4-78 and lonna vash teaches the exile niman form however M4-78 was cut content from the game

Potential Niman users

Lumas Etima, Ikrit, Ood Bnar and Dominus have all been removed as possible practitioners. If I made a mistake, go ahead and revert it. But dying at Geonosis or generally being a pacifist does not automatically make one a Niman user. :-) -BaronGrackle 04:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also... I ask because there have been so many additions of Niman users for which there is no canon backing, and now I'm suspicious... what's the source for Obi-Wan Kenobi occasionally using Niman? -BaronGrackle 01:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well considering it was in the BTS it was fine. The three masters Ikrit, Ood Bnar and Dominus all admitted that they were not fighters and that combat was not their skill. Combine that with the fact that they were primarily diplomats could say something. I think that those are some examples that can be viewed as evidence. This is why they were in the BTS section. As for the source of Obi Wan is in the RoTS novel I believe. DarthMalus 22:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the Obi-Wan answer, but I don't think diplomacy or pacisfism is enough to list one as a potential user. General Grievous calls Obi-Wan "The Diplomat" in ROTS, and Quinlon Vos uses the same descriptor for Agen Kolar. And Niman isn't the sole technique of non-fighters; Form "Zero" has its prime place among the pacifists. Those who focus more on resolution than fighting span from Yoda to Felanil Baaks to undoubtably numerous others. And then there's our hippie friend Qui-Gon Jinn, who seems to be the greatest culmination of diplomacy and pacifism to ever grace the trilogies. Yet none of these are Niman users. If we are to include those three now in the article, then why not include others like Zao or Yaddle? Because the list of Jedi who have no verified form, and who are either diplomatic or pacifistic, is huge. So, while I have not yet removed them from the article, I think they should be.
  

In contrast, who are the only verified Niman users? Warriors like Cin Drallig and Kavar, (and even Obi-Wan to some extent). How is it that those two masters understand Niman? Because they seek to understand a number of lightsaber forms, perhaps so they can change their stance to adapt to various different situations. This desire for balance and adaptability is, ultimately, what drives the Niman form itself! For all we know, it is entirely possible that Cin Drallig started with only Form VI and, as his skills gradually increased in each area of the other lightsaber forms, he slowly transformed from being a master-of-none to a master-of-all. Drallig was not at the Battle of Geonosis, so he couldn't use it to redeem Niman like Aayla Secura could for Ataru. Just remember: that many Jedi considered Niman an inferior form suitable only for non-fighters is a canonically speculative view held by some in the Star Wars universe. That the only verified users of Niman include TWO Jedi Guardians (some speculate Kavar to be a Weapon Master too) and a Jedi freaking Battlemaster, in contrast, is a canonical fact of the Star Wars universe. -BaronGrackle 00:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Who added Revan, and based on what? - TopAce 22:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • User 63.228.105.9 added him along with a fanon image that was removed earlier. Some day, a source is actually going to specify someone who used Niman, someone's going to add the information here, and then someone else like you or me is going to revert it on principle. -BaronGrackle 22:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Improving the Niman article

I am going to try (if I can find any cannon information) to improve the Niman article. It is a good article but I found it a little uninformitive, so please if you know any information, cannon information, please add to this article. Derek Yoda's friend 02:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Cin Drallig using Form VI against Darth Vader.

Instead of an edit war, can we get verification that Drallig is actually using Form VI in that image currently placed back in the article? -BaronGrackle 17:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• • There is not a source for it. It is fanon.DarthMalus 21:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

What is this?

"Sometimes, sparring with another could achieve a state of meditation, and the Niman form was one of the best such techniques. Its great strength was the way it allowed the Force to flow through its practitioner, revitalizing him even in the middle of combat." *What is this? Is it sourced? Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 04:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds suspciciously close to a lecture you receive from a jedi master on KotOR II: The Sith Lords. I beleive the Master on Dantooine says it. I will load up the game and update if that is the correct source now. Nikose 04:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's from KotOR II. Master Zez-Kai Ell's lesson. Makashi Flourish 15:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)Makashi Flourish

Niman is not weak

The form was not weak, it was the practioner. You are basing your arguments that niman itself was weak. It is not the style, it's the practioner. If you spend enough time with he form you could execute with just as much efficiently as the other six forms.Nihilus Acolyte88 04:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• You'll note that the article itself states what you just tried to prove. What exactly is your question/statement? ^Jorrel_Fraajic 04:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Form VI related to Jar'Kai?

"The form was named after Niman, the twin trinities of Kashi gods. Its forerunners were both two-bladed styles, one developed by the Royale Machetero of Kashi Mer, and the other the original Jar'Kai, develped by the Yovshin Swordsmen. It was adapted by the Legions of Lettow after the Great Schism into current Jar'Kai form of combat. Form VI was adapted from Jar'Kai."

Do we have a source for this, claiming that Form VI was adapted from Jar'Kai? I followed the links for Royale Machetero and the other organizations, but none of their articles mention Form VI. The story I heard from the Niman article (actually, a quote from the talk page of that article) was that the two forms were called Niman for different reasons and were unrelated. -BaronGrackle 16:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Stance picture

Somebody who has the ROTS visual dictionary should upload the picture of Obi-wan in the Niman stance and add it to the article. 96.240.217.108 00:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Geonosis: source doesn't match article.

This article states: "However, all of the Form VI practitioners at the Battle of Geonosis in 22 BBY were killed." The source for this is stated to be the Fightsaber article in Star Wars Insider 62. However, the source does not say that all Form VI practitioners at the Battle of Geonosis were killed. Instead it states: "almost all the Jedi at the Geonosis arena who favored Form VI were killed". Key emphasis on almost and Geonosis arena in that source article, instead of all and Battle of Geonosis. I have edited the article to match the information in the source provided. If anyone objects, feel free to revert it or discuss the issue here. 124.148.124.131 13:40, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Darth Sidious

As Darth Sidious is his most recent appearence in The Clone Wars used too blades cery effectively against Maul and Savage, should we add him to the article, even if just to say that Sidious likely practiced some form of this form of combat?

As much as I would like to agree with you, there is still no confirmation of what particular Form Darth Sidious uses. He uses Jar'Kai yes, but Niman? Even the Darth Plagueis novel failed to elaborate on his particular style. We know he trained in blaster deflection training (but did he use Shii-Cho, Soresu, Shien or perhaps Niman?, we'll maybe never know). Like Yoda, Darth Sidious is a master of every known Lightsaber Form but we know Yoda prefers to use Form IV. Unlike Yoda, we do not know what Form is preferred by Sidious. BTW where in Labyrinth of Evil is there evidence Palpatine is a Niman practitioner? Just curious, I no longer have that novel so not been able to check. 94.8.91.76 14:54, May 21, 2013 (UTC) Makashi-Master

Curiosity

How is form II excluded from the elements that Niman incorporates in moderation, when the aspect of Makashi's Force resistance was within the statistical bonuses given by Niman?

Niman "The Moderation form, also known as Niman or Form VI, is strong in all situations, but has no dramatic strengths. This form has the following effects:"

Attack Modifier: +1 Defense: +1 Blaster Bolt Deflection: +1 Saves vs Force Powers: +1--Yashuvoo Sommin (talk) 23:56, June 26, 2015 (UTC)

Kylo Ren

Uses Niman, no ? He blocks a blaster shot with one-hand grip on the blade, off-hand folded across the chest so he could Force out AND deflect in one movement 24.15.237.127 06:18, January 9, 2016 (UTC)