Adding sub-sections to the growing article
The article is starting to fill with quite a lot of information as time goes by, and looks like there will be even more information in the future. I'd propose adding sub-sections at least to the "Working with Crimson Dawn" -section to differentiate the events in which Deathstick has been part of, and of course make it easier to follow and read. Any thoughts or suggestions about the layout for the sub-sections? QuagganWanderer (talk) 09:01, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a specific requirement when it comes to sub-sectioning, but check out Revan or Mitth'raw'nuruodo to see how it's done with a large section :) Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 10:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- Very well, after revising it looks like the article is at the moment quite manageable and solid, but I'll keep an eye for the future if there needs to be done some re-arranging and adding more sections! QuagganWanderer (talk) 11:18, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
Behind the Scenes: Human depiction
Regarding the tidbit from "Behind the Scenes" -section that she's been depicted as human in the comics, I'm not certain where that assumption comes. None of the comics thus far have stated the character to be anything else than what was already established in "Star Wars: Uprising" the mobile game , and her features depicted in the comics are in line with the description of Dathomirian Zabraks (as in legends and canon). I'd suggest reconsidering retaining the trivia. QuagganWanderer (talk) 09:15, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- I haven't read the comics but I believe she's depicted more tan that the whiter tone used elsewhere? Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 10:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- I personally don't think the difference is that significant to warrant such assumptions, but I can see all of it being prone to some levels of subjective interpretation - especially when it comes to the colouring in comics, as it can be a lot of times all over the place and making it difficult to maintain visual consistency. The latest Crimson Reign (issue 2) stated that the character and her mother are survivors of Battle of Dathomir, indicating that the character indeed is a Dathomirian, but the statement is subject to in-universe bias due to being told from Qi'ra's perspective, and partially clashing with the information what we have about her mother Shelish from the "Star Wars: Uprising" and "Myth and Fables" story collection (she never partook in the battle, having left Dathomir long before the tragedy). Just my two cents on the matter - perhaps something to take into consideration with the Behind the Scenes trivia, for what it's worth! QuagganWanderer (talk) 11:16, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- I've raised it on the discord server, but I personally think we could remove the mention of her being human (though noting the skin tone difference) if: 1) She's clearly depicted as Dathomirian in SWU 2) "Duck test" interpretation has been used to identify her species in the game, in conjunction with Shelish's appearance and her history 3) "Duck test" interpretation has been used to identify her as human in the comics based on her skin tone 4) Comics do not state her species outright Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- This page from the comic clearly shows she is human compared to the typical depictions we've had of dathomirians. I think it will stay as-is until some clarification is provided in upcoming media. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:43, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarifications! I have scoured through the SWU gameplay video material multiple times as well as the recorded SWU official webpage in recorded web-archives, but have yet to find anything that outright confirms her being a Dathomirian, apart from that her skin tone being almost corpse pale and her mother being a Nightsister from Dathomir. The "duck test" regarding the skin tone is a fair one considering many panels in the comics have her skin tone different from SWU, although I'd argue it is still flimsy considering the slight variance within different comic pages, and especially as in Crimson Reign issue 2 where the flashback of the Battle of Dathomir depicts the Nightsisters of Dathomir (https://www.starwars.com/news/marvel-star-wars-crimson-reign-2-exclusive-preview) with exact same skin tone as Deathstick throughout the comics, and therefore by the "duck test" they would be human too. When it comes to other features apart from the skin-tone, I'd say the deductions from the unmasked picture from Crimson Reign issue 1 are arguable, considering Dathomirians can have hair of any colour or shape (as per Fantasy Flight Games' roleplaying game books, like Ghosts of Dathomir; and the animated series), and according to SWU mission "Test of Steel" the Kouhun (which Deathstick belongs to) do not wear tattoos, debunking the requirement for her having tattoos for being a Dathomirian. Either way, I do hope the upcoming media clarifies these things a bit more :) QuagganWanderer (talk) 13:30, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- It is more than the Crimson Reign series that depicts her as a human, the Doctor Aphra and Bounty Hunters series do as well. If Deathstick is not actually ever stated to be a Dathomirian Zabrak then I'm more inclined to say that we shouldn't be saying she is one, regardless of her mother being one. Lewisr (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- I see. Well, either way although I think the Dathomirian Nightsisters having the same skin tone as Deathstick in Crimson Reign issue 2 flashback is a strong indication to say otherwise, as well as all the many various references and connections to Dathomir (like the poison in the linked Aphra panel), I don't think I have any more arguments to push this forward, especially with the fact that she's never outright been stated to be a Dathomirian Zabrak. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if there are anything new information regarding the matter in the future. Thanks for the discussion! QuagganWanderer (talk) 14:39, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- It is more than the Crimson Reign series that depicts her as a human, the Doctor Aphra and Bounty Hunters series do as well. If Deathstick is not actually ever stated to be a Dathomirian Zabrak then I'm more inclined to say that we shouldn't be saying she is one, regardless of her mother being one. Lewisr (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarifications! I have scoured through the SWU gameplay video material multiple times as well as the recorded SWU official webpage in recorded web-archives, but have yet to find anything that outright confirms her being a Dathomirian, apart from that her skin tone being almost corpse pale and her mother being a Nightsister from Dathomir. The "duck test" regarding the skin tone is a fair one considering many panels in the comics have her skin tone different from SWU, although I'd argue it is still flimsy considering the slight variance within different comic pages, and especially as in Crimson Reign issue 2 where the flashback of the Battle of Dathomir depicts the Nightsisters of Dathomir (https://www.starwars.com/news/marvel-star-wars-crimson-reign-2-exclusive-preview) with exact same skin tone as Deathstick throughout the comics, and therefore by the "duck test" they would be human too. When it comes to other features apart from the skin-tone, I'd say the deductions from the unmasked picture from Crimson Reign issue 1 are arguable, considering Dathomirians can have hair of any colour or shape (as per Fantasy Flight Games' roleplaying game books, like Ghosts of Dathomir; and the animated series), and according to SWU mission "Test of Steel" the Kouhun (which Deathstick belongs to) do not wear tattoos, debunking the requirement for her having tattoos for being a Dathomirian. Either way, I do hope the upcoming media clarifies these things a bit more :) QuagganWanderer (talk) 13:30, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
- This page from the comic clearly shows she is human compared to the typical depictions we've had of dathomirians. I think it will stay as-is until some clarification is provided in upcoming media. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:43, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- I've raised it on the discord server, but I personally think we could remove the mention of her being human (though noting the skin tone difference) if: 1) She's clearly depicted as Dathomirian in SWU 2) "Duck test" interpretation has been used to identify her species in the game, in conjunction with Shelish's appearance and her history 3) "Duck test" interpretation has been used to identify her as human in the comics based on her skin tone 4) Comics do not state her species outright Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- I personally don't think the difference is that significant to warrant such assumptions, but I can see all of it being prone to some levels of subjective interpretation - especially when it comes to the colouring in comics, as it can be a lot of times all over the place and making it difficult to maintain visual consistency. The latest Crimson Reign (issue 2) stated that the character and her mother are survivors of Battle of Dathomir, indicating that the character indeed is a Dathomirian, but the statement is subject to in-universe bias due to being told from Qi'ra's perspective, and partially clashing with the information what we have about her mother Shelish from the "Star Wars: Uprising" and "Myth and Fables" story collection (she never partook in the battle, having left Dathomir long before the tragedy). Just my two cents on the matter - perhaps something to take into consideration with the Behind the Scenes trivia, for what it's worth! QuagganWanderer (talk) 11:16, February 16, 2022 (UTC)
There is a blurb on here consistantly confusing an artistic choice for a lore choice
The lore in the comics is clear, she is a dathomirian Zabrak... no changes to the lore have occured. The artists for whatever reason made her slightly more human than is typical for dathomirian Zabrak... but objectively speaking, the only significant difference between her and other dathomiri in canon, is that her hair is a more brown color. Which is not significant enough to include the blurb. Urktheturtle (talk) 08:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- The fact that Deathstick is depicted as a human is a perfectly valid thing to be noted, compare Aphra (who is actually a human) and Deathstick in this image here, this kind of depiction is repeatedly used in the comics. Lewisr (talk) 13:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- she is not Depicted as human, Its just the artists of the comic deciding she looks more human. She is never referred to as human, and is specifically referred to as Dathomirian. Nothing about her lore has changed, they arent mistakenly portraying her as human... they are just drawing her different than how most dathomirians are portrayed... and not that differently looking. People make art choices... you are mistaking an art choice ,for a change in lore... but nothing has changed in her lore... Salvador Larroca portrays all human characters as inhuman monsters, are you going to include that for every human character he has drawn? Urktheturtle (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Like, just to add to this, you are basically arguing right now "she has marginally darker skin than Dathomirians are typically portrayed as having, therefore she is being portrayed as human"... you realize that... species can have individuals of more than one skin tone right? Even in Star Wars, Darth Mauls brother is Yellow... is be "not being depicted as a zabrak" hell my mother and I have significantly different skin tones. Urktheturtle (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Is she actually referred to as a Dathomirian though? Because from what I can see, Deathstick herself hasn't been called a Dathomirian, only her mother. The difference here is that it looks like she is being outright depicted as a human, I understand that species can have different tones, but this feels a bit more than just a simple different tone Lewisr (talk) 16:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Her eye color is the same, her skin is only marginally darker than what is typical, and her hair is not a color we have seen on Dathomirians... but in what we have seen of them, there has been white, black, and blonde hair. And Dathomirian males have been shown with a wide variety of skin tones... and her skin tone isnt even that different from the one she is shown to have in the game. And yes she is specificalyl shown to be Dathomirian, unambiguously.... with absolutely zero room for there to be interpretation that she is anything but Dathomirian. Urktheturtle (talk) 16:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- To add to what I just said, you are mistaking an artistic decision for a lore decision. If she was portrayed as a Rodian that would be weird and something to talk about, but she is being portrayed as mildly different. Urktheturtle (talk) 16:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I haven't made it a lore decision, all I merely stated in the behind the scenes is that she was depicted as a human in the comics, which is pretty accurate to what has been shown. You haven't provided where she is specifically said to be a Dathomirian. Lewisr (talk) 16:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Issue 2 of Crimson Reign, where she is shown to be Dathomirian when her backstory is being described. They outright show the Dathomirian massacre from the clone wars when talking about her backstory. She is unambigously shown to be dathomirian in this moment. There is no room for interpretation that she is being "depicted as a human" you are just wrong. Urktheturtle (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Also you havent addressed a single one of my points, all you keep doing is ignoring me and saying "she is depicted as human" without providing a single shred of proof that any artist intended for her to be human. Urktheturtle (talk) 19:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Artistic intentions don't matter. If she's shown as a human, then she's shown as a human. Therefore, it's fair game to document it. OOM 224 19:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I will also add that the info in Crimson Reign 2 is inaccurate, Deathstick's mother had left Dathomir long before the massacre so they couldn't have escaped it as mentioned in the issue. Plus if you compare the skin tones of the actual Nightsisters shown in the issue and Deathstick, they clearly don't match. I also provided an image above which shows her as a human Lewisr (talk) 19:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would like to note that I am currently waiting on a response from Paolo Villanelli (who illustrated the Bounty Hunter comics) on this very topic. I would also like to note that this skin coloring carries throughout different comic series illustrated by different artists, and thus most likely not the choice of the artists themselves. AmazinglyCool
(talk) 20:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the info in Crimson Reign is inaccurate, because its being given by a character in-universe. That is dialogue being spoken by someone who doesnt have a first hand account of it. So that being a "continuity error" isnt really a thing, thats something being spoken in-universe, and peopel can be wrong or slightly wrong. As well the flashback sequence is tinted red, so the coloring of the skin tones of hte nightsisters is indeterminable. But I dont really care about the skin tone of the nigthsisters. and have not mentioend it.. .there skin tone doesnt matter. And now she is not "shown as a human" she is only ever presented as a Dathomirian in the comics, there is never an attempt to present her as a human. Most likely the skin tone happened in the first issues, and other artists carried it over, and the original artist misunderstood the artwork available of Deathstick honestly... But it doesnt change the fact that her skintone and hair color is only slightly different than that we have seen on Dathomirians. Urktheturtle (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- im trying to honestly figure out why any of you care what the skin tones of the nightsisters in the flashback are... thats just baffling to me. Like legitimately... here are the facts, she is a Dathomirian, the comic says she is dathomirian... the game says she is dathomirian. She has this skine tone, therefore its possible for Dathomirians to have this skin tone.... you guys are saying "she has this skine tone, therefore its impossible for her to be dathomirian" if you applied this same logic to Maul and Savage, it would be "maul is red, and a zabrak... savage is yellow, therefore savage is not being portrayed as a zabrak" Urktheturtle (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is not what we are stating. We are noting a clear distinction in the appearance between her video game depiction and her comic depiction. If a comic depicts Han Solo with blue skin, we would neither assume that he had blue skin, nor that humans could have blue skin. This is the same situation. Deathstick's skin color has completely changed, and thus this is important to note in the BTS.AmazinglyCool
(talk) 00:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC) - The comic never flat out calls her a Dathomirian, nor even in Uprising was she called it, it seems she was only assumed to be one because of the fact her mother was, and her skin colour in the game. In the comics, however, it is pretty clear that Deathstick is not being protrayed the same as any of the other female Dathomirian Zabraks/Nightsisters we have seen in canon, where else have you seen a female Dathomirian depicted with the same skin colour that Deathstick has? Lewisr (talk) 00:51, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you really think this marginally different visual is important to note... dont say she is being depicted as human, because depiction doesnt just mean visuals... say she is being "depicted in a way inconsistent with canon portrayals of Dathomirians" because we have seen many times, human-looking species that look entirely human in this franchise. Noting a visual inconsistency is fine, however... if you look at hte images of her from the game, as well as surrounding promotional art... I would argue that her skin tone in the game is already a fair bit darker than most other dathomirians, especially her own mother. May I propose an alternate take on the text? "Deathstick is portrayed in a way inconsistant with portrayals of Dathomirians, with much darker skin than her own mother, some promotional art surrounding the game also depicts her with eyebrows a trait not seen in other dathomirians. The comics are further inconsistent, portraying her with skin a skin tone and hair color not consistent with other depictions of dathomirians." Saying she is being depicted as a human is wrong, saying that the artist is not drawing her consistent with other Dathomirian depictions is correct to some regard. Urktheturtle (talk) 02:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Morgan Elspeth is also shown to be a Witch of Dathomir, and yet she looks "more human" than the witches were shown in TCW.
- If you really think this marginally different visual is important to note... dont say she is being depicted as human, because depiction doesnt just mean visuals... say she is being "depicted in a way inconsistent with canon portrayals of Dathomirians" because we have seen many times, human-looking species that look entirely human in this franchise. Noting a visual inconsistency is fine, however... if you look at hte images of her from the game, as well as surrounding promotional art... I would argue that her skin tone in the game is already a fair bit darker than most other dathomirians, especially her own mother. May I propose an alternate take on the text? "Deathstick is portrayed in a way inconsistant with portrayals of Dathomirians, with much darker skin than her own mother, some promotional art surrounding the game also depicts her with eyebrows a trait not seen in other dathomirians. The comics are further inconsistent, portraying her with skin a skin tone and hair color not consistent with other depictions of dathomirians." Saying she is being depicted as a human is wrong, saying that the artist is not drawing her consistent with other Dathomirian depictions is correct to some regard. Urktheturtle (talk) 02:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is not what we are stating. We are noting a clear distinction in the appearance between her video game depiction and her comic depiction. If a comic depicts Han Solo with blue skin, we would neither assume that he had blue skin, nor that humans could have blue skin. This is the same situation. Deathstick's skin color has completely changed, and thus this is important to note in the BTS.AmazinglyCool
- I would like to note that I am currently waiting on a response from Paolo Villanelli (who illustrated the Bounty Hunter comics) on this very topic. I would also like to note that this skin coloring carries throughout different comic series illustrated by different artists, and thus most likely not the choice of the artists themselves. AmazinglyCool
- I haven't made it a lore decision, all I merely stated in the behind the scenes is that she was depicted as a human in the comics, which is pretty accurate to what has been shown. You haven't provided where she is specifically said to be a Dathomirian. Lewisr (talk) 16:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Is she actually referred to as a Dathomirian though? Because from what I can see, Deathstick herself hasn't been called a Dathomirian, only her mother. The difference here is that it looks like she is being outright depicted as a human, I understand that species can have different tones, but this feels a bit more than just a simple different tone Lewisr (talk) 16:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
This is all from a certain point of view stuff that the wiki is extrapolating far too much from. The comment should be dropped.Marandahir (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- These are two different scenarios: Elsbeth is human and has always stated to be such. Deathstick's two types of depictions are inherently contradictory. Even if Deathstick is still Dathomirian, it is important to note this contradiction. AmazinglyCool (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- These are two different scenarios: Elsbeth is human and has always stated to be such. Deathstick's two types of depictions are inherently contradictory. Even if Deathstick is still Dathomirian, it is important to note this contradiction. AmazinglyCool
Current state of the "multiple issues" category at the beginning of article.
Hey! I have done my best to add new images to the article as requested, and so far it looks alright considering how few image material there is to begin with. Do you think the "multiple issues" tag at the beginning could be removed, as it seems to refer to the state of the article before people have expanded it up to date with the latest comics and sources? Article seems okay to me right now. QuagganWanderer (talk) 12:13, March 1, 2023 (UTC)