BDZ or not?
Give quotes if possible, refrain from personal attacks and excessive speculation, and go ask another admin for the unprotection, I'm not online again until at least late Monday evening. —Silly Dan (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- The relevant quotes describing the attack, from SWTC. [1]
- "... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a through search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface." - Scavenger Hunt, p.3
- "As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter." - Scavenger Hunt, p.20
- The atmosphere was completely blown off and the surface was reduced to molten slag. The description is identical to a BDZ. The datapacks recovered by the Imperials were most likely in deep underground bunkers similar to the one ZNT-8 was in. McEwok's claim that "the last of its atmosphere drifted away" refers to air inside the Rebel base is completely insane. --Vermilion 05:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- There was also some discussion of this on TFN in this thread. McEwok made the same claims there and was smacked down. --Vermilion 07:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Vermilion, I take it you don't atcually have access to Scavenger Hunt, just what SWTC says about it?
The key point of my position is this: there's no canon evidence that Dankayo was subject to a "Base Delta Zero", or that the planet's crust was reduced to a "molten" state; accordingly, such statements have no place on Wookieepedia. There may be something happening with the atmosphere that might suggest comparable levels of firepower, but it's by no means clear what's happening here, or what it implies.
There are, I think, two issues here:
1.) "Slagging" of the surface. A complete reduction of a planet's face to a molten state is generally taken to be indicative of a Base Delta Zero bombardment.
Whether that idea is accurate is another issue, but the question to hand is is what actual evidence is there for the melting of Dankayo's surface?.
Well, I can find no canon evidence in support of Vermilion's claim that "the surface was reduced to molten slag", let alone any direct reference to this as a "Base Delta Zero".
Firstly, there's no evidence that the bombardment was aimed anywhere except at the base itself, which is clearly a specific location on Dankayo. The three Star Destroyers are ordered "to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag", while the back-cover text says "The Imperials have destroyed the Rebel base on Dankayo, reducing the facility to slag". No mention is made of any wider bombardment, nor is any rationale for one suggested.
Can we define the nature of the bombardment any further?
a.) How extensive was the bombardment?
We're told of "dense clouds of atomized topsoil" and the planet's "now evenly-cratered surface"; we also have a description of the base in the aftermath of the attack, which Vermillion seems unaware of: the first-person narrative of ZNT-8's log goes on to describe how he "crawled up the accessway to the surface -- or what is left of it. If nothing else, the Empire is generous with its overkill"...
None of these statements directly excludes the idea that the bombardment was planet-wide, but nor do they make this explicit. There's also a plausibility factor: for three ISDs to bombard the total surface of an approximately Earth-sized planet in 24 hours would require each of them to level 20,000 square kilometers every second - that's a circle 160km across, with each individual bolt having to affect several dozen square kilometers.
b.) How destructive was the bombardment?
The descriptions of cratered ground and dust flung up into the air don't provide any evidence that the "slagging" involved the actual melting of the crust, rather than simply surface impacts; more serious however is the evidence of ZNT-8's description of the base. As he watches through his macrobinoculars, here, at the very target of the attack, we get a further description of the situation: "Imperial stormtroopers sifting through the rubble of our defensive installations, others loading salvaged equipment into barges for transport", and then, to his shock, the Imperials "blasting open the doors to an intact chamber in the main base".
Clearly, the base's defences were reduced to "rubble" rather than simply a melted smear, rubble from which "salvaged equipment" could be recovered; and ZNT-8 could also see that part of the main base remained intact. This was where the datapacks were recovered from, and if he had a line-of-sight view to use his macrobinocs, it must have been on the surface. This disproves Vermillion's suggestion that the datapacks were "most likely in deep underground bunkers".
Moreover, the reason that the computer chamber survived wasn't some special defensive capability of the construction. The self-destruct charges designed to destroy the "central base computer" failed when the bombardment took out the "power supply to the central computer center".
In short, the Dankayo assault was aimed at a specific target, the "tiny" Rebel base. Structures on the surface remained partially intact in the heart of the base. Nor is there any rationale for a planet-slagging bombardment. The bombardment was followed up by a surface operation designed to recover useful material from the debris, and the Imperials were disappointed that "Not a single being, living or dead, was discovered on the planet", due to the base's earlier evacuation: these elements of the operation are inconsistent with the claim that the previous bombardment was a Base Delta Zero or even a localized "crust-melting" attack.
2.) The "atmosphere" drifting away. This is nowhere else mentioned in connection with a Base Delta Zero.
True, in Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, we see Milagro a couple of months after the Empire's planetary bombardment there, which is described as having "a thin atmosphere"; but there's no indication that this was a result of the bombardment, rather than a preexisting feature of the planet, and in any event it's clear that there was a breathable atmosphere after the bombardment.
On Caamas, soot and smoke ejected into the atmosphere during the bombardment rendered the air "toxic to most aliens" according to Coruscant and the Core Worlds, requiring "a breathing mask for any sustained activity", but the planet did not lose its atmosphere.
I've been told that the energies that would be required to burn off a normal planetary atmosphere are commesurate with planet-melting firepower, and I acknowledge as much on my version of the page ("The reference to the loss of "atmosphere" could still indicate planet-slagging firepower levels"); but there are several problems with this interpretation.
In general terms, a catastrophic loss of atmosphere is never mentioned anywhere else in connection with a BDZ—quite apart from the fact that there's no other evidence that the Dankayo attack was a BDZ in the first place.
More specifically, there's a logical problem here: the line that describes how "the last of its atmosphere drifted away" is coupled directly with a description of "the dense clouds of atomized topsoil" still in Dankayo's sky, which will soon settle back on the surface, and this seems paradoxical—don't these "dense clouds" represent an atmosphere?
I made an alternative suggestion that the description could relate to an enclosed internal atmosphere in the base, which Vermilion dismisses with the rather subjective term "insane".
Let's look at this more closely, though. The meaning of the phrase "the last of its atmosphere drifted away" hinges on the noun that the pronoun "its" refers to—known gramatically as the "precedent". Normally, we'd expect this to be the immediately previous noun—which in this case is "the tiny base", at the end of the previous sentence: the last of [the tiny base's] atmosphere drifted away...?
There is an ambiguity here, inasmuch as the two sentences are seperated by a section header, Recent Events, and the noun that occurs later in the sentence is "Dankayo". It's certainly possible that a reference to Dankayo's atmosphere was intended, but the grammar is unclear, as is the meaning: atmosphere loss due to orbital bombardment is never described anywhere else, and the energies required don't fit well with the level of destruction actually described on the surface.
This leads on to the final question:
3.) How should the page be written?
I'm sure my version could be improved, as always, but I'm not sure what's wrong with my basic two-stage approach: (a.) rewriting the text to make the question of the bombardment's extent and intensity oblique, and (b.) adding a behind the scenes section, summarising the uncertainties:
- The bombardment of Dankayo is widely regarded in fandom as a "Base Delta Zero" involving the melting of the planet's entire surface.
- There's no direct canon evidence for a "Base Delta Zero" or planet-wide bombardment; in fact, the target is specified as a "tiny" Rebel base, and even here, surface structures remain semi-intact.
- There is a reference to a loss of "atmosphere", which could indicate BDZ-level firepower, but there are problems with interpreting and understanding this, and it's not impossible that this is meant as a reference to the base's internal atmosphere.
And, whewh, that was far too long and detailed! --McEwok 14:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, I've looked over Scavenger Hunt, and the level of destruction is *not* commensurate with that described here for a Base Delta Zero operation. Either our description of a BDZ requiring the melting of the surface of a planet is wrong, or Dankayo wasn't a BDZ, because Agent ZNT-8 was walking around on the surface, observing Imperials walking around on the surface. The base was not reduced to molten slag, because there's plenty of intact, retrievable stuff there - the whole point of the adventure is on recovering some of it, in fact. So either it ain't a BDZ, or the threshold for what counts as a BDZ is set too high. However, the description of even cratering of the entire surface DOES tell us the Imperial operation was planet-wide and not limited to the Rebel base, a fact consistent with ZNT-8's description of the operation as "overkill." jSarek 23:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! I still think there's a logical problem with planet-wide cratering, but that's secondary at best—the main question is: where do we go from here?
- Remove the problematic stuff from the entry itself? I'd be prepared to use the version from my own edit, but obviously I'm not bound to it.
- And perhaps add a "Behind the scenes" section with some explanation? I'll wait and see what other people suggest for this, though.
--McEwok 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- Either our description of a BDZ requiring the melting of the surface of a planet is wrong, or Dankayo wasn't a BDZ, because Agent ZNT-8 was walking around on the surface, observing Imperials walking around on the surface.
- How long after the planet had been blasted was this? Without an atmosphere to retain the heat, it would eventually cool much quicker. I assume they were all wearing space suits? Because this definitely sounds like a BDZ, the material of the base could simply have been stronger than its natural surroundings. The surface you reference would not actually be the surface, since that was now gone and the lower levels exposed. "Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface" means the whole planet was hit, not just one section of it. VT-16 10:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- How, exactly, does it "sound like a BDZ"? The reference to the rubble of the base defenses suggests that the surface level remains intact, and there is no explicit canon backing for this being a BDZ. At best, you can say it might be, which isn't the same as proof.
- Alternatively, for instance, there's nothing to say that Dankayo wasn't a dwarf planet the size of Pluto or even Ceres, with a tenuous atmosphere; it would be much more practical to have the surface of something this size "evenly-cratered" in a reasonably short length of time. Completely bombarding the surface of something Ceres-sized is much more reasonable: an area of 12km² per second per Star Destroyer, assuming that the assault lasts 24 hours. With larger planets, area-per-shot requirements simply become implausible.
- Ultimately, though, the point seems clear: there simply isn't clear-cut evidence of a BDZ at Dankayo in Scavenger Hunt. --McEwok 12:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- The top soil of Dankayo was atomized, the atmosphere was blown off and the planet was evenly cratered. That's a BDZ. VT-16 15:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- In canonical terms, no. In canonical terms, a BDZ is a mission to wipe out a planet's population, settlements and resources. Since the Imperials were disappointed not to find Rebel survivors, clearly this wasn't intended as a BDZ in that sense. It's also worth noting that the one canonical BDZ described in detail, at Caamas, was accomplished largely through igniting massive wildfires, and neither burned off the atmosphere, nor left the planet "evenly-cratered".
- SWTC argues that a BDZ involves completely melting a planet's crust—if references to crust-melting in ICS make this canon (which is a whole seperate issue) then clearly the Dankayo attack wasn't a BDZ in these terms either.
- As to the specific statements in the text, "Atomized" can simply mean "reduced to an aerosol", not neccessarily "reduced to atoms", and the questions of "atmosphere" and the "now evenly-cratered surface" are problematic for a number of reasons already discussed. Currently, I'm inclinded to think that the most coherent solution is for Dankayo to be a Ceres-sized dwarf planet, though I'm not firmly committed to the idea, and the fundamental point is this: we don't know how to reconcile the seeming contradictions, so we can't pretend that one interpretation or another is canon. --McEwok 18:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
CUSWE's article on Base Delta Zero says this about the order: "originally coined during the Clone Wars, this was the military code name for any operation whose goal was the complete destruction of all a targeted planet's "assets of production," including factories, arable land, sentient life, and droids. A Base Delta Zero operation reduced the upper crust of a planet to molten slag, rendering it useless to either side of a conflict." That's it. BDZ destroys the assets on the surface, destroying the surface, as these Star Destroyers did to Dankayo. A BDZ operation that destroyed the entire planet's surface. VT-16 02:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Canon evidence on BDZs
The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia is not Star Wars canon, as I'm sure you know. With a little rummaging, I've found the following references in canon:
1.) If Army commanders deem the surface situation to be beyond hope of victory, or if the proper political authorities directly command it, the Navy is to execute a series of punitive attacks upon the target. The attacks are given code names which vary according to the mission and change frequently. The only code name which has not yet changed is "Base Delta Zero", the code for complete destruction of all "assets of production", including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and Droids. The code name has not yet changed so there can be no possible confusion when a Base Delta Zero is ordered—The Imperial Sourcebook
2.) The First Sun is a repulsorlift infantry regiment designed primarily to run search-and-destroy missions, which he troops of the unit jocularly refer to as SLAMs (Search, Locate, Annihilate mission). Indeed, the regiment often undertakes missions with the same objective as the "Base Delta Zero" command: the elimination of all assets of production, including factories, land, mines, fisheries, droids, and sapient beings (particularly any witnesses that may have seen atrocities being commited).—Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim describes the First Sun Mobile Regiment
3.) Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy—you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued."—Star Wars Adventure Journal 2, p.256, quoted at SWTC
4.) "Hardly, young man. My orders are to enter the Hutt system, execute order Base Delta Zero upon the Smuggler's Moon, Nar Shaddaa, and then blockade Nal Hutta and Nar Hekka until the Hutts agree to allow full customs inspections and a complete military presence on their worlds. The Moff doesn't want to cripple the Hutts too badly, but he wants Nar Shaddaa reduced to rubble."
Han swallowed, his mouth dry. Base Delta Zero was an order that called for the decimation of a world—all life, all vessels, all systems—even droids were to be captured or destroyed.
...
The worst problem, as far as Fel was concerned, was implementing order Base Delta Zero on Nar Shaddaa. Fel knew that last wasn't Greelanx's fault. The Sector Moff had issued that order. But in the admiral's place, Fel would have at least tried to get Sam Shild to modify that instruction. The Emperor's directive had been to shut down the smuggling operations out of Nar Shaddaa and other smuggler nests, especially the gunrunners. The directive hadn't included anything about razing the entire moon.
...
He knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each order to fire. And afterward... they'd have to send down shuttles and ground troops to mop up, and he, Fel, being a conscientious commander, would have to oversee that operation. Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his mind, and Fel took a deep breath.--The Hutt Gambit
5.) Armies entrenched deep underground may be subject to a last-resort "Base Delta Zero" fleet bombardment. Such operations reduce the upper crust of a planet to molten slag - a spectacle unseen in the Republic until the Clone Wars.—Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections.
Those are the canon quotes I'm aware of, in chronological order.
The first question raised by all this is whether a BDZ neccessarily has to be planet-wide: the initial reference simply describes the "target" after the failure of an Army assault, and the second refers to missions with the same objectives as a BDZ being carried out by mercenary infantry. Similarly, the AotC:ICS quote is to do with "Armies entrenched deep underground"—specific targets, not whole worlds.
The SWAJ remarks and Han's musings are more suggestive of planet-wide scale, but I don't think they quite add up to proof that a BDZ must be planetary-scale.
Even more interesting is the evidence for the actual damage involved. From GG9, we learn that the required level of destruction can be achieved by mercenary infantry, and in The Hutt Gambit we see a force dispatched to carry out a BDZ where the only ships with heavy weapons are three Dreadnaught Cruisers and two Carrack-class light cruisers, and where references are made which decisively suggest widespread devastation rather than planet-wide crust-melting.
So, where does all this leave Dankayo? Well, it could be a BDZ - especially if BDZs can be localized and require an infantry followup. But there's certainly no proof, and Base Delta Zero needs a rewrite. --McEwok 03:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia is not Star Wars canon, as I'm sure you know.
Never said it was. And there's your proof, other instances of BDZ, which even left buildings recognizable. They obviously don't use full power unless feeling the need to dig deeper for enemy assets. So that clears it up, finally. Dankayo had a BDZ performed on it. VT-16 09:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Can you be so sure? As I just said: "it could be a BDZ - especially if BDZs can be localized and require an infantry followup. But there's certainly no proof...."
- Other levels of bombardment operation exist, as described in The Imperial Sourcebook: "if the proper political authorities directly command it, the Navy is to execute a series of punitive attacks upon the target. The attacks are given code names which vary according to the mission and change frequently".
- So, yes, the Dankayo attack could be a BDZ, but it could also represent some other, somewhat less intensive, sort of bombardment operation, or the imperial commander could have used excessive force on his own initiative. We simply don't know for sure. And with no canon reference to give us a clear answer, we can't just make one up. We can say somewhere on the page that it may have been a BDZ, but I don't think we can say categorically that it was. --McEwok 13:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
My conclusions so far
Now that the talk page is two or three times as long as the article, and I've had a chance to look over Scavenger Hunt myself, I'll say what I think on a few issues.
- GG9 refers to BDZ-type operations carried out by mercenary infantry, which implies that a BDZ doesn't necessarily mean the slagging of an entire planetary surface from orbit. I would expect the First Sun regiment could carry out a BDZ against a single city if so ordered, while an Imperial fleet could carry one out against an entire inhabited planet with a orbital bombardment. This should be taken into account by the Base Delta Zero article, though, not on this article.
- The planetary crust doesn't seem to have been uniformly reduced to molten slag, since the Rebel base was rubble rather than a puddle and ZNT-8 could walk on the surface. It is clear that the Rebel base, at least, was supposed to have been reduced to slag under the Imperial task force's initial orders. However, it was uniformly bombarded after the attack, which is why the text refers to "Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface" (emphasis mine).
- It seems to me like the sequence went as follows: a planet-wide orbital bombardment which wasn't intense enough to destroy the base's lower levels or ZNT-8's survival shelter, a search for survivors and clues as to where the Rebels went, and a cancellation of further operations by most of the task force.
- The presence of "topsoil" implies to me that Dankayo was a life-bearing, if unpopulated, planet. So the idea that it was a previously cratered lifeless planet with no atmosphere other than that found within the Rebel base seems unlikely to me.
- The term Base Delta Zero is not used, which doesn't necessarily mean the attack on Dankayo couldn't be so described. If we insist on a BDZ being an orbital bombardment which melts a planetary crust to the depth of several kilometers, this might be an incomplete BDZ. If we take it to mean "kill everybody and leave nothing of any possible use to the enemy behind", then it may have been a complete BDZ which didn't require melting the crust, since only one Rebel was present during the assault (and ZNT-8 apparently went on a suicide mission before the Imperials could discover him or her), no evidence of other Rebel installations on-planet were found, and the remains of the base were stripped and carried off by the Elusive.
- Nothing to do with the article's content, but I have to say I'm not happy with the way some of the contributors to this discussion have used terms like "completely insane" and "smacked down", or relied more on quoting secondary sources than the main text. Not a good way to argue your points, gentlemen.
I'm going to unlock this, and edit Vermilion's version to remove the term BDZ from the main article text, and replace "molten slag" with something about "evenly cratered". I'll also add an abbreviated version of McEwok's "BDZ or not?" BtS section. —Silly Dan (talk) 15:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- One other thing: the idea of the atmosphere drifting away while dense clouds of atomized topsoil (airborne dust? dirt vaporized into gas?) are still settling seems contradictory to me, so I'm leaving any mention of it in the BtS. —Silly Dan (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Works for me. I agree on the seeming contradiction—and also note that for a decent-sized planet to be "evenly-cratered", each Star Destroyer would have to bombard a minimum of several thousand square km every second. Any way we try to reconcile/explain the different statements is going to be speculative.
- Next thing to find consensus on: Base Delta Zero itself! [2]
- --McEwok 18:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- There are no contradictions, afaik. I've read about the BDZ in The Hutt Gambit and the BDZ described in AOTC:ICS. There's clearly different degrees of devastation involved, which can be decided by the commanding officer (this is possible due to the variable-yield weaponry available to military powers in SW). Either destroy everything on the surface, making the target world uninhabitable or bombard it so much that even facilities deep in the earth are affected and the surface slagged. The case with Dankayo is the former (which was also intended on Nar Shaddaa in Gambit), since the entire surface was cratered at the end of the operation, the topsoil atomized and the atmosphere shedded off. With one Imperial-class destroyer able to slag a world on its own, the 3 ISDs that participated in the operation would also be able to do the same job in 1/3 the time. That is the purpose of the BDZ orbital bombardment, to deny a planetary body to the enemy by making it uninhabitable. VT-16 22:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- If you absolutely insist on including the term BDZ in the main text, I suppose that's OK. However, since the term isn't used anywhere in Scavenger Hunt, we should have the BtS note explaining that. Additionally, The Hutt Gambit never mentions Dankayo, so it shouldn't be listed as a source for this article (and referring to the Nar Shaddaa operation isn't more relevant than a link to Taris, Camaas, etc.) Obviously, it is a source for the BDZ article, but it's already listed there. —Silly Dan (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps unsurprisingly, I have to disagree with VT. We know from The Imperial Sourcebook that "Base Delta Zero" specifically denotes the most severe of a range of bombardment protocols, and we cannot say on the basis of Scavenger Hunt whether this code was issued—even if the firepower employed was equivalent to a BDZ (and we can't quite say that for sure), that could simply represent latitude or overkill by the commander of the operation, and thus not strictly a BDZ. It's highly possible, yes—especially in the light of the fact that everyone seems to have overestimated the canonical firepower level of a BDZ—but not certain. On a lesser, but linked point, the "dense clouds of atomized topsoil" don't mean that all "the topsoil atomized", as the current version implies.
- I think it would be better if we said in the main text that this may have been a BDZ (which is true enough), tweak the "atomised" line, and perhaps re-add Dan's Bts line about the interpretation being "potentially confusing, since the debris clouds are said to be 'settling' although the atmosphere is drifting away".
- I also disagree with VT's interpretation of the AotC evidence, for what it's worth. It's open to interpretation whether "Such operations" that "reduce the upper crust of a planet to molten slag" refer to "a last-resort 'Base Delta Zero' fleet bombardment" in general, or specifically to the destruction of "Armies entrenched deep underground", i.e. to localized bombardment of sub-surface targets. But that's really a topic for Talk:Base Delta Zero. --McEwok 17:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- On the first point, they do say the Imperial task force was supposed to "reduce the tiny base to molten slag", which is the highest level of bombardment anything other than a planet-busting superlaser would capable of, as far as I know. But you're right that not all of the topsoil needs to have been atomized, just a significant portion. —Silly Dan (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I take the point, but we don't know exactly what would differentiate a BDZ from the levels of bombardment immediately below—and it's possible that a simple order to destroy the base was given, without a directly specified "Base Delta Zero" command. Also, "molten slag" seems to be something of a rhetorical statement, given the actual nature of the wreckage.
- I'd suggest: When the Imperial task force arrived, they bombarded the planet from orbit, in an an assault that may have been a Base Delta Zero operation. The attack did far more than merely reducing the small Rebel fortress to wreckage, leaving Dankayo's surface thoroughly cratered, blasting dark clouds of dust into the sky, and even stripping away the atmosphere. --McEwok 10:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- The reason I mentioned The Hutt Gambit was precisely because a similar operation to the one on Dankayo was going to be performed there and it was called a Base Delta Zero. But if this discussion is over, it can be left out. VT-16 07:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- Any comments on my suggested edit? If not, I'll go ahead and change it. --McEwok 02:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)