Outcome
Can we put in the result section of the info box "The formation of the First Order"? Jkirk8907 (talk) 13:12, March 30, 2017 (UTC)
- As long as that's what is said in Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary, it should be fine. JRT2010 (talk) 13:18, March 30, 2017 (UTC)
- The Visual Dictionary said, "The Galactic Concordance defanged the Empire's ability to wage war, with strict disarmament treaties and punishing reparations. The Old Empire withered away. becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic, before eventually breaking away to reform in the unknown regions as the mysterious First Order.Jkirk8907 (talk) 13:33, March 30, 2017 (UTC)
Cold war merge with the First Order–Resistance conflict
Before I go and do something silly. the Opening crawl for Poe Dameron 20 mentions the cold war between the New Republic and First Order. could this mean the First Order-Resistance conflict really has been the cold war? and if so shouldn't we merge the two pages?Jkirk8907 (talk) 09:35, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- No. They would be concurrent conflicts. The Resistance is a separate paramilitary group. It's basically a proxy war, like Vietnam, Korea, or in Nicaragua. Technically they were not part of the "Cold War", but they basically were. Plus, for all we know, the other Imperial splinter groups not affiliated with the First Order could also be in a state of cold war with the New Republic. It's just such a vague conflict at the moment, so we know little about it. Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:01, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- I agree, I'm not sure if this should've been done, Cold War is more about the tension between the NR and the FO, meanwhile the Resistance-FO conflict was something that came from the lack of action by the NR against the FO. I feel this should be different pages.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:29, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
There wasnt even a discussion about this, the user just went ahead. Cold War and the Resistance vs FO are diferrent!
- I disagree that they should be two separate articles. For starters, "First Order-Resistance conflict" is a made up name that we conjecturally used to create the article. The source that this article now claims refers to the "First Order-Resistance conflict" makes no such reference, so that name should be removed completely. Secondly, to treat the various instances of conflict between the Republic and the First Order as separate from the engagements between the Resistance and First Order doesn't really make any sense. The aggressor in the conflict was the First Order, and the Resistance was created to fill the void the Republic was creating by not participating in that conflict. Just because the Resistance was not part of the Republic doesn't mean this is two separate conflicts. Cold wars, after all, involve proxy conflicts between aggressor states, and the Resistance engaging on behalf of the Republic makes them a proxy actor for the Republic in the cold war. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 21:32, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- I would say that its like the real Cold War in which both governments in this case NR and the Empire Remnants/FO were in "peace" but with the tension between them, and the the Resistance was a movement born from it and started a war against the FO like Vietnam or Korean War. Both are related and belong to the Cold War, but its not the same in my opinion.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 21:42, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- There's nothing, beyond supposition, to suggest that there was a "First Order-Resistance conflict" that was separate from the cold war. The cold war is TFA backstory that covers the boiling tensions in the galaxy, tensions in which the Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order all played a part. Advocating for two separate pages is essentially advocating for making up a conflict out of thin air. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 22:09, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- I would say that its like the real Cold War in which both governments in this case NR and the Empire Remnants/FO were in "peace" but with the tension between them, and the the Resistance was a movement born from it and started a war against the FO like Vietnam or Korean War. Both are related and belong to the Cold War, but its not the same in my opinion.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 21:42, October 13, 2017 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, is the "Cold war" meant to be a proper noun, or should it technically be "a cold war?" Reddyredcp (talk) 02:21, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think Cold War and the First Order - Resistance Conflict should be merged. From our understanding the cold war involves general galactic tensions occuring, many of which are not directly connected, while the First Order-Resistance conflict is just one conflict that makes up the cold war. The New Republic, Resistance, and First Order were all a part of the cold war, likely because their conflict, is considered part of the cold war, much like in real life, while there may be other factions that are involved in the cold war but not in the First Order-Resistance conflict.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 02:48, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- Again, "First Order-Resistance conflict" is 100% made up as a catch-all umbrella term for the battles that took place in TFA. Other sources have since given us a bigger picture of the overall conflict, which the TFA Visual Dictionary refers to as the cold war. If anyone can point to any actual evidence that a "First Order-Resistance conflict" exists as an event independently of the cold war, then there'd be a case for a separate article. But as it stands, I see no evidence of the existence of a separate conflict. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 04:58, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- The TFA Visual Dictionary says "The New Republic tolerates the Resistance, though it is wary of risking war with the First Order", another quote "He is not worried about the FO, as long as the former Imperials are contained within their borders and are following the dictates of the Galactic Concordance", the Visual Encyclopedia list The Resistance vs. The First Order, also says "The Resistance is a small military force that answers to no government..." another says "The Resistance is intended to monitor the FO and battle them if they threaten to break the peace treaty". Although it lacks from an official name, its clearly that the FO vs Resistance its something separate from the whole Cold War of the NR vs FO, the New Republic doesn't take action against them but its "vigilant", meanwhile the FO vs Resistance conflict/war especially now that its a open war against them after TFA, are independent without unofficial "support" of the NR but they take action, if they violate the peace treaty. The FO vs Resistance borns from the Cold War since the NR doesn't try to stop the FO. Its the way I understand the conflict that both are related but different.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:27, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- All of that just describes the official stance of the Republic towards the First Order. It doesn't say that there are two separate conflicts. You're reading into it too much and speculating. If an official source wants to say that there are two separate conflicts, we can create a separate page then. But until then, we'd be misleading our readers by suggesting that there is a separate conflict when not a single source states that there's a separate conflict from the cold war period of rising tensions. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:40, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- Where it says that the Resistance was part of the Cold war? TFA is linked to the Resistace but I could be wrong, but I don't remember saying that Resistance was in the cold war also since the NR and Resistance were not affiliated its wrong to list them together we'd be misleading our readers that the NR and Resistance were working together --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:48, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- All of that just describes the official stance of the Republic towards the First Order. It doesn't say that there are two separate conflicts. You're reading into it too much and speculating. If an official source wants to say that there are two separate conflicts, we can create a separate page then. But until then, we'd be misleading our readers by suggesting that there is a separate conflict when not a single source states that there's a separate conflict from the cold war period of rising tensions. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:40, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- The TFA Visual Dictionary says "The New Republic tolerates the Resistance, though it is wary of risking war with the First Order", another quote "He is not worried about the FO, as long as the former Imperials are contained within their borders and are following the dictates of the Galactic Concordance", the Visual Encyclopedia list The Resistance vs. The First Order, also says "The Resistance is a small military force that answers to no government..." another says "The Resistance is intended to monitor the FO and battle them if they threaten to break the peace treaty". Although it lacks from an official name, its clearly that the FO vs Resistance its something separate from the whole Cold War of the NR vs FO, the New Republic doesn't take action against them but its "vigilant", meanwhile the FO vs Resistance conflict/war especially now that its a open war against them after TFA, are independent without unofficial "support" of the NR but they take action, if they violate the peace treaty. The FO vs Resistance borns from the Cold War since the NR doesn't try to stop the FO. Its the way I understand the conflict that both are related but different.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:27, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- Again, "First Order-Resistance conflict" is 100% made up as a catch-all umbrella term for the battles that took place in TFA. Other sources have since given us a bigger picture of the overall conflict, which the TFA Visual Dictionary refers to as the cold war. If anyone can point to any actual evidence that a "First Order-Resistance conflict" exists as an event independently of the cold war, then there'd be a case for a separate article. But as it stands, I see no evidence of the existence of a separate conflict. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 04:58, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
- Asked Pablo, Leland, and Matt, and only Matt responded but he said that once there was conflict it wasn't really a cold war anymore. Based on that, maybe instead of merging the page First Order-Resistance conflict with the cold war as it's been done, we should be considering whether we merge it with the First Order-Resistance war. I also suggest that people stop prematurely making changes when we have not reached an agreement, as that happened here, and that's what happened when the First Order-Resistance War page was created separately from the First Order-Resistance conflict before we reached an agreement. Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/919592022415208448 --Vitus Infinitus (talk) 00:41, October 16, 2017 (UTC)
- The opening crawl for Poe Dameron 20 says that the NR and FO were still secretly in a Cold war at that time, at that point there's been a few skirmishes between the FO and NR/Resistance so it definitely seems the cold war between the FO/NR was separate from the Resistance/FO conflict/war whatever you want to call it, I agree with what Vitus said about what should be merged^ --Lewisr (talk) 01:05, October 16, 2017 (UTC)
- Sounds good.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 02:25, October 16, 2017 (UTC)
- The opening crawl for Poe Dameron 20 says that the NR and FO were still secretly in a Cold war at that time, at that point there's been a few skirmishes between the FO and NR/Resistance so it definitely seems the cold war between the FO/NR was separate from the Resistance/FO conflict/war whatever you want to call it, I agree with what Vitus said about what should be merged^ --Lewisr (talk) 01:05, October 16, 2017 (UTC)
- We need to fix Cold War soon and I don't think I have the expertise to do so, so that we can avoid confusion among others who are currently viewing and editing the page.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 14:09, October 16, 2017 (UTC)
- Slight update per Poe Dameron 20, Karé Kun says to Temmin Wexley 'Think about the missions we've been flying-Black Squadron's supposed to be covert under the radar.. but how many times have we actively engaged with First Order forces recently. This cold war is feeling pretty blasted hot.' --Lewisr (talk) 10:52, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
- Matt explained further and cleared things up a bit more. Here's the tweet: https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/920674780159737856 --Vitus Infinitus (talk) 16:22, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
- Has anyone reviewed what Matt said? I think this is important. From what I gather from Matt, the cold war is being taken too literal. As Matt said, the cold war is not like the Cold War between US and Soviet Union, it's as a political buildup of tension, like Germany building up prior to WW2, and he goes on to say that the cold war has no official beginning or end. Matt even goes on to say that if there is a formal Cold War, it would be between the FO and Resistance, but the Resistance is a small splinter group, and calling the conflict between them a Cold War may be inaccurate, it's more like a contained conflict between them that's growing slowly but surely. Please take time to review his tweets and discuss, I think we're using the Cold War the wrong way.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 23:44, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
- Yes he even suggests its not even an official thing, I'm not sure it was intended to be an actual thing hence why it was written as 'cold war' rather than 'Cold War' etc in the visual dictionary --Lewisr (talk) 23:59, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
- To me that raises the question as to whether there should be a page about the cold war at all, or if it's something that should be in a prelude to a First Order-Resistance conflict page. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:24, October 26, 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think we know enough for it to have its own page, we literally only know from the visual dictionary and Poe Dameron 20 that the NR and FO were engaged in a cold war, but what does it mean? Nothing is ever outright said --Lewisr (talk) 00:32, October 26, 2017 (UTC)
- I think we could just move the information to the prelude section of First Order-Resistance War and shrink it down a bit.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 18:01, November 14, 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think we know enough for it to have its own page, we literally only know from the visual dictionary and Poe Dameron 20 that the NR and FO were engaged in a cold war, but what does it mean? Nothing is ever outright said --Lewisr (talk) 00:32, October 26, 2017 (UTC)
- To me that raises the question as to whether there should be a page about the cold war at all, or if it's something that should be in a prelude to a First Order-Resistance conflict page. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:24, October 26, 2017 (UTC)
- Yes he even suggests its not even an official thing, I'm not sure it was intended to be an actual thing hence why it was written as 'cold war' rather than 'Cold War' etc in the visual dictionary --Lewisr (talk) 23:59, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
- Has anyone reviewed what Matt said? I think this is important. From what I gather from Matt, the cold war is being taken too literal. As Matt said, the cold war is not like the Cold War between US and Soviet Union, it's as a political buildup of tension, like Germany building up prior to WW2, and he goes on to say that the cold war has no official beginning or end. Matt even goes on to say that if there is a formal Cold War, it would be between the FO and Resistance, but the Resistance is a small splinter group, and calling the conflict between them a Cold War may be inaccurate, it's more like a contained conflict between them that's growing slowly but surely. Please take time to review his tweets and discuss, I think we're using the Cold War the wrong way.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 23:44, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
- Matt explained further and cleared things up a bit more. Here's the tweet: https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/920674780159737856 --Vitus Infinitus (talk) 16:22, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
- Slight update per Poe Dameron 20, Karé Kun says to Temmin Wexley 'Think about the missions we've been flying-Black Squadron's supposed to be covert under the radar.. but how many times have we actively engaged with First Order forces recently. This cold war is feeling pretty blasted hot.' --Lewisr (talk) 10:52, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
End of the Cold war
User:Weirdo Guy seems to be under the expression that the Cold war ended with the Hosnian Cataclysm instead of the Assault on Starkiller Base What's everyone opinion on it?Jkirk8907 (talk) 08:24, October 14, 2017 (UTC)
Merge fix
After the above discussions, we should undo the merge that was made between Cold War and First Order-Resistance Conflict, and merge First Order-Resistance Conflict with First Order-Resistance War, as soon as we can.--Vitus Infinitus (talk) 05:40, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
It's a Proxy War, not a Cold War
A proxy war is a conflict between two states or non-state actors where neither entity directly engages the other. It encompasses two separate powers utilizing external strife to somehow attack the interests or territorial holdings of the other. This frequently involves both countries fighting their opponent's allies or assisting their allies in fighting their opponent.--Dogsteeves (talk) 03:22, March 6, 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but we have to follow the definition described in Canon sources such as Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary, which first came up with the term "Cold war." Coming from a history and political studies background, I can understand the frustration. The people writing the Canon sources don't always have a background in history and politics so they may not get the definitions right. Since Wookieepedia is based on the licensed Canon and Legends sources, we have little choice but to follow them. Andykatib 03:35, March 6, 2018 (UTC)
5 ABY
Since Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary establishes that a cold war between the New Republic/Resistance takes place 5 BSI to 0 BSI (so 29 ABY to 34 ABY), can someone tell me where exactly its been stated to have started in 5 ABY? --Lewisr (talk) 11:02, December 23, 2019 (UTC)