Talk: Arren Kae

Kae=Kreia? some thoughts

Smells like fanon --Imp 07:42, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Even if it isn't, it should be merged with Kae. QuentinGeorge 07:53, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • It is not certain that they are the same person. --Imp 08:02, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • This is not fanon, this name appears in KOTOR II in conversations with Handmaiden and Disciple. Kae and Arren Kae are indeed the same person, so Kae should redirect here. It is unknown, however, if Kreia is the same person. - Sikon 08:43, 5 Jul 2005 (UTC)
      • Could a seperate page be created so that people can discuss whether Kreia and Kae are the same person. Hopefully there we could come to a conclusion. Jasca Ducato 08:43, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)
        • This is an encyclopedia, not a forum. Without a direct confirmation, the hypothesis that Kreia is Kae cannot be included into the article as it cannot be considered canon with the information we have. - Sikon 10:16, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)
        • Didn't Kreia mess with Mical's mind so he couldn't remember she was a Jedi? Kriea was Revan's first and last master. But Mical thinks it was Kae because he can't remember Kriea through the force.

I think the only record we have of the reason of Kae's exile and the reason of Kreia's exile is...Kreia; couldn't she be lying about one or the other? And Briana doesn't recognize her, true, but Kreia says she can mak people forget/misperceive her.JustinGann 05:59, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)

• What about we make an article called, say, Kreia/Kae identity speculation, where we can list all arguments for and against them being the same person? - Sikon [Talk] 06:35, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)

sound good. !Lieutenant Gerard 18:22, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean, "Exile had no knowledge of her"? Remember that Exile knows more than the player. Much more. - Sikon [Talk] 14:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• There is nothing that may lead to think that the Exile knew anything about Arren Kae before Brianna mentioned her. When Kreia talks about Kae it is possible to answer "I don't remember her - are you sure?", i think this is reason enough to state that the Exile had no knowledge of her, which is strange indeed, exile is a rare sentence, even more so for a Jedi Master, and surely would have been hard not to notice one of Revan's former masters joining his cause, furthermore the Exile knew General Yusanis as "a hero of the Mandalorian Wars, one of the greatest" and he entered battle to side with Kae as Brianna says.--Jinger 22:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Somethings missing, the article says both are said to be Revan's first master, but they're also said to be the last. That Kae taught Revan first we know from Mical, he also says "It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order" (after that Kreia mind tricks him to stop him from saying too much. Very suspicious.) The same we hear from Kreia, with enough influence: "But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." There is also more to the tricks Kreia uses to hide her presence, she doesn't use them only on the Jedi Masters, Mical doesn't even realize she's on the Ebon Hawk until she chooses to reveal herself (just enough to toy with him a while longer), and there may be reason to think she used them on Brianna too.

It's hard to think of how the Jedi would find out about Brianna if Kae wouldn't have spent a single moment with her child in ten years, yet Brianna says she never saw her face, somehow she must have forgotten. Also when Kreia plays hide-and-seek with Mical she clearly says ":: You know who I am. But you will be unable to voice it, to remember it. ::" implying Mical knew her on Dantooine during his time in the jedi enclave and that her true identity is one she is keeping secret (no chance that identity is Darth Traya, there's no way Mical or anyone else other than the sith would know that name, at least there's nothing that would lead to think that.) --Jinger 22:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The list of these little things just never ends, the words Mical uses are:

there is something about them, they further imply that Mical knew her before she got herself the markings of the dark side, so again there's no way the secret identity would be Darth Traya (you don't ask "why have you done this?" to a sith anyway), he's recognizing a Jedi Master whose name is not Kreia, and that question bears surprise, he asks why she is plotting against the Jedi, like "why have you betrayed us?". Another thing is missing, something important i'd say, about the circumstances of Kae's presumed death:

--Jinger 07:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to say something remember when you say to kreia "you dont seem to like the handmaiden why" kreia seems to be embarassed and dosent like to talk about it. It could be she is hiding the fact that she is handmaidens mother. —Unsigned comment by 216.209.129.41 (talk • contribs)

• Could be, shmould be. Wookieepedia is about canon, not someone's beliefs. - Sikon 16:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed, speculations have no place among facts, yet as long as they are presented as such, set aside from the main article, and exclusively built upon facts without ifs and maybes, there is worth in mentioning them in sections such as "Behind the scenes", as simple observations, the most relevant and noteworthy. Like how both Kae and Kreia are said to be Revan's first and final master with both sources reporting the same details and no possible explanation as to how could they feature two different masters:

--Jinger 08:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• Kreia is said to be Revan's first and last master, but we don't know anything about Kae. - Sikon 08:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
  • But we do, Mical says Kae is the first, and he claims the first to be also the last, with the same details as Kreia.

--Jinger 08:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the image of Kreia with her hood off [1] and Brianna's concept art [2] their facial features are virtually identical and Brianna "bears the face of her mother" Regarless if it is canon or not it deserves a small foot note specifically of the affore mention from Mical of Kae being Revan's frist and last teacher and Kriea saying she, Kriea, was Revan's first and last teacher —Unsigned comment by 71.74.66.92 (talk • contribs)

http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2058/index.html <==== I think this is the most compelling argument I have seen to support the Kreia Arren Kae thing. It gathers all the subtle clues from the game and pieces them together. After seeing this I have no doubt they are the same person. There may be other supposedly 'canon' sources that try to reveal Kreia as someone else, but just because they weren't smart enough to decipher all of the clues doesn't make what they say canon. Kreia is Arren Kae. —Unsigned comment by 68.9.194.149 (talk • contribs)

• Actually, it does. Canon isn't based on smartness, logic or deciphering subtle clues, it's based on what LFL says is and isn't canon. -- I need a name (Complain here) 10:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. I just got a little heated, though I was making the point that the evidence is there, and that it isnt just the whole, first master, last master thing, Kreia has similar Echani philosophies. Anyway.

We can't state that Kreia was Arren Kae, even with all the evidence there is. There's even a video on youtube with all the hints from the game, but this stuff can't cross the Bts section as of yet, it needs for new sources to come up where she is actually said to be Arren.--Jinger 13:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Like how it needs to be explicitly said that Kreia was once Darth Traya? No one ever says so, not even Kreia, yet we take it as fact enough to give the two one article because it is so obviously implied, and that doesn't seem to hinge on her end-game nametag. Consider if the name 'Darth Traya' had not appeared over her at the end: there would be less evidence that Kreia was Darth Traya than that Kreia was Arren Kae: simply that Traya rhymes with Kreia, Kreia sometimes talks about Traya, Traya's a betrayer, and Kreia kind-of-sort-of betrayed the Exile. With the Kae matter, however, either Kreia was Arren Kae or the implications to that effect are the most improbably and ironically well-corroborated and glaring contradictions of TSL's circumcised story.

1a. Brianna says her mother was a Jedi Knight, yet remembers neither her name nor her face.

1b. Kreia says Brianna's mother was Arren Kae.

1c. Mical, unaware of Kreia, says that Arren Kae was Revan's first and last master.

1d. Kreia says she, Kreia, was Revan's first and last master.

2a. Brianna says that her mother was said to have died in the Mandalorian Wars but that her body was never found.

2b. The Jedi Council fails to refer to Kreia by any name at all, yet Vrook exclaims that she was thought to have died in the Mandalorian Wars.

3a. By Kreia's reckoning, Darth Traya practically is betrayal, and again, we consider Traya to be Kreia.

3b. A Handmaiden at the Telosian Jedi Academy attributes Brianna's apparent betrayal of the academy to the fact that 'she bears the face of her mother.'

3c. Brianna claims that it is believed by her sisters that betrayal runs in her family's blood.

3d. Kreia very strongly discourages the Exile from teaching Brianna, in betrayal of Atris. If the Exile does teach Brianna, Kreia's solemn and angry response is, simply, 'Betrayal.'

-- KeyanVellar 05:03, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

• • Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, page 158 points out the obvious fact that Kreia = Darth Traya. Nice try. -- I need a name (Complain here) 10:14, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • Okay? I wasn't seriously suggesting that it wasn't true or not obvious. May have misunderstood. -- KeyanVellar 12:31, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Why has't anyone asked Obsidian about this??

They have asked Chris Avellone, he wouldn't comment on it. All he said was "Can't comment... but good catch. Sorry."--Jinger 19:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

A minor note that I just noticed. When you talk to Kreia about the Handmaiden and say that you'll eliminate her, she stops you with a little more pep than she would otherwise despite having nothing good to say about her before. -- Ripplemagne, 17:03, August 13, 2009 (UTC)

There is one detail I noticed I took the liberty of taking as another hint. When you ask Kreia what's wrong with her eyes, she answers: "I see all that I need, though the seeing of things, flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only." True, it's a big assumption on my part, but it could be interpreted as her referencing her affair with Yusanis. Just saying. 186.18.106.27 20:17, April 27, 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

• How is this not neutral POV? Chack Jadson 01:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The article lists way more arguments for Kreia being Kae than against this theory, even though the view that they're separate is considerably more popular, according to votes. - Sikon 16:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You can't exactly measure neutrality based on the number of arguments for and against. Think of some of your own 'against' arguments then, and remove the fugly billboard... heh.

--Goodwood 17:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Arren Kae is Darth Traya

The fact that Brianna says she favors her mother, because she has a different mother from the other Handmaidens could mean that Kreia is her mother. Also, the fact that Brianna is Force-sensetive even though Kreia says that Atris taught the Handmaidens to resist the Force could mean that Kreia was opening her to the Force. Also, Kreia knows so much about Brianna's mother it could be assumed that Kreia herself was Brianna's mother. When Kreia speaks of her it is as if she is remembering painful things, a remininsce perhaps? I personally beileve that Arren Kae is Darth Traya. Plus, there's the fact that history tells us that Arren Kae died in the Mandalorian Wars. If so, then why at the Jedi Enclave does Master Kavar says to her "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars". He obviously remembers her from the Mandalorian Wars. With this evidence, I present to you that Arren Kae, Kreia, and Darth Traya, Dark Lady of Betrayal, are three names for the same person.

Heading off to war is a fall to the dark side

The council never said that, no Jedi Master ever says the Jedi faction that marched to war under Revan was to be considered lost to the Jedi until they came back from the outer rim, which occurred months after the end of the Mandalorian Wars. There is no evidence, canon or otherwise, that would support that remark. Even the Jedi Exile, who was notably the only one to come back to the Jedi Council to face judgement, wasn't stripped of the title of Jedi before then, and even then the Jedi Masters kept callin her a Jedi, save Atris whose corruption would later be revealed.

Revan returning as the Dark Lord of the Sith was a total surprise to the Council, Master Dorak goes as far as saying everyone thought they were dead, Master Kavar tries to explain what a time of great uncertainly they were facing as they learned that Revan was back with an armada and so many of the order had betrayed them, and none of them ever learned how, there were none who had knowledge of Trayus Accademy and by the end of the Jedi Civil War they were still ignorant as to what happend on the outer rim to corrupt Revan and the others.

It's ridiculous to say that marching to war corresponds to a fall to the dark side of the Force, even Master Kavar took the battle to the madalorians yet he never lost his place among the Jedi. In the times before Kreia would join the Mandalorian Wars the only thing the Jedi Council could have had her exiled for was the number of padawans of hers who chose to defy the Council - if that would even be enough, considering how rare that kind of sentence is and how many other masters saw their students turn on them - and not Revan's fall to the dark side which was still far from taking place. Furthermore, even as Revan stroke back from the outer rim, at the Exile's trial the holorecord shows how the masters (save Atris) were comprehending of the fact that Revan's teacher intended no harm, and Revan had other masters before he chose to lead the Jedi to war anyway, the Jedi would not exile Kreia for that, Lonna Vash herself spoke of taking responsibility rather than cast blame.

--Jinger 23:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Well said. I completely agree. Even Master Ell enlightens the Exile that his very own Padawan fell to the dark side and joined the Sith. Just a little more beef to back up your argument, Jinger. ;-) --Master Dakari 00:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• • I agree with your point but you are wrong about Kavar. He never fought the Mandalorians. He was expected to lead the Jedi against the Mandalorians but never did it. 128.227.57.137 05:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I suppose it's possible Vrook was talking about the JCW, Mandalore does back that possibility, but how strange would it be for a Jedi to have fought in the JCW? Was every one of those Jedi to have Master Vrook's disapproval? Then again, point taken.

--Jinger 08:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jedi General

Why should she be in that category? It's fanon, I'm removing it.--Jinger 12:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Death?

It says she died in 3960 BBY. Are there any sources for this? Or is it just speculation? Darth Greig (Talk) 23:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• That would be because Brianna says she died in the final conflict of the Mandalorian Wars, which was the Battle of Malachor V in 3960 BBY. Jediphile 04:34, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Species

Since Brianna's father was Echani, and her mother Arren Kae a Human, shouldn't that be listed as Arren's species? Also I believe that in the game, Brianna's blue eyes are stated to have come from her mother. Near-sighted Jedi 22:28, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

• No, when sources presents her as an Echani. –Tm_T ^(Talk) 06:40, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
  • ^And by that I meant Brianna. (: –Tm_T ^(Talk) 06:48, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

If Brianna is half-Echani half-Human, and her father is Echani, why is Arren Kae's species unlisted in this article when she is obviously human? --Potsk (talk) 21:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)