Forum:TC:Jakku Imperial remnant

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or, if the page was deleted, in the Senate Hall rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Merge pre-Galactic Concordance information on the Jakku Imperial remnant with Galactic Empire and keep page for new remnant formed afterwards. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Jakku Imperial remnant (talk - history - links - logs - delete - protect)

Based off of the Star Wars: Alphabet Squadron trilogy, more specifically Victory's Price, it's clear that a merge to Galactic Empire is warranted. Spoilers ahead:

  • According to Aftermath: Life Debt, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda was the proxy Emperor of the Galactic Empire following the death of Palpatine, and became a puppet of Gallius Rax and Rae Sloane, and was eventually removed as the de facto leader of the Empire by Rax who usurped him as Counselor to the Empire.
  • Victory's Price establishes that the forces on Coruscant under Amedda were loyalists forces.
  • Victory's Price states that what was left of the Imperial Navy were known as loyalist armadas, which eventually reached Jakku.
  • According to Empire's End, the Galactic Concordance was signed by the New Republic and the Galactic Empire under Amedda after he regained control of what was left of the loyalist forces after the Battle of Jakku. Furthermore, Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary establishes that Jakku was the final battle ground of the Galactic Empire and the New Republic. Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary states that Gallius Rax gathered the bulk of the Imperial Navy at Jakku. The Star Wars Book establishes that the surviving Imperials signed the Concordance after the Imperial defeat at Jakku, along with stating that the Empire signed the Concordance at Jakku. There are many further sources, including several issues of Star Wars Helmet Collection that further state the Empire surrendered to the Republic after their defeat at Jakku.
  • Ultimate Star Wars, New Edition establishes the following: "However, following Palpatine's death, Amedda lacks any real power and the Empire shatters into multiple factions. Fleet Admiral Rax, who is in charge of much of the remaining fleet, does not assist Amedda. Amedda attempts to turn himself in to the New Republic, but their leaders refuse his empty surrender. After the Battle of Jakku, most of the remaining Imperial forces are defeated, so Amedda represents the Empire at the signing of the Galactic Concordance."
  • Ultimate Star Wars, New Edition also provides: "At the end of the Galactic Civil War, the New Republic discovers Imperial forces defending Jakku and the Observatory. Both sides take part in a major battle in space and on the planet itself. A portion of the Empire's forces escapes to the Unknown regions, but, by the battle's end, the Empire has suffered a resounding defeat."
  • Star Wars Propaganda: A History of Persuasive Art in the Galaxy establishes the following: "Former Vice Chair of the Republic Senate under Finis Valorum and Sheev Palpatine, Amedda served as Grand Vizier for the entirety of the Galactic Empire, and represented Imperial interests during the signing of the Galactic Concordance."
  • Victory's Price further states that the 204th Imperial Fighter Wing was working under the loyalist forces from Jakku, further establishing that the loyalists and the Empire are the same entity.
  • Additionally, the Imperial forces at Jakku are referred to as a remnant only in the New Republic sections of the book as the true Empire's military forces, which have also been referred to as loyalist forces.
  • Counter Arguments:
    • Colonel Soran Keize, leader of the 204th, has the following from his POV in Victory's Price: "-that the New Republic would take an aggressive stance, direct its battleships and frigates and fighters to obliterate the Imperial remnant; and known that the odds of Imperial victory were slim."
      • Counter to the counter argument: This is superseded by his own dialogue earlier when the novel mentions the following: ""-they would believe Soran's threats a bluff, or his forces beatable, or the remnants of the true Empire so desiccated as to be unworthy of their pledge." Aforementioned arguments, especially those from reference books and the events of the novel, it's clear that these remnants of the "true Empire" are the loyalist forces of what remains of the Galactic Empire.
    • Rae Sloane, former Grand Admiral and de facto leader of the Empire per Empire's End, mentions the following from her POV: "And now, mysteriously, it hosts the largest remnant of the Empire— her remnant, as a matter of fact, a military faction she thought she controlled."
      • Counter to the counter argument: Previously in the novel, it mentions that Gallius Rax stole her Empire from her. As established in Aftermath and Aftermath: Life Debt, Sloane became the leader of the Galactic Empire. Additionally, as mentioned above, the forces at Jakku are part of what remains of the true Galactic Empire, the loyalists.
    • Sinjir Rath Velus, former Imperial and now New Republic advisor, has the following passage from Empire's End: ""Not this time," Sinjir says, his tone dire. "Surrounding that planet is the entire Imperial remnant. One imagines it's like Akiva—a total occupation. Except this is ten times worse than Akiva. A hundred times. Jom, we don't even know if Jas and Norra are alive down there. What we do know is, if we have any shot here, that means hitting the Empire hard as we can. And to do that, we need a resolution to engage them. We need to finish this war.""
      • Counter to the counter argument: Sinjir refers to the forces at Jakku as the entire Imperial remnant while also referring to it as the Empire. While Empire's End is now an older source, Victory's Price establishes that the forces on Jakku are not the entirety of their forces, as they also control Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and Imperial forces on Coruscant, and are all referred to as loyalists. Additionally, after the loyalists were defeated at Jakku, Amedda represented the Galactic Empire (what remained of it) and surrendered to the New Republic. There is also the fact that this statement is from Sinjir's POV, and that Sinjir may not be correct on his statement, as superseded by reference material and Victory's Price.
  • Additionally, the Imperial forces at Jakku are referred to as a remnant only in the New Republic sections of the book as the true Empire's military forces, which have also been referred to as loyalist forces.
  • Here are several quotes and texts from Victory's Price that provide context about the events in the novel:
  1. ""Coruscant remains under Imperial control, but the fleeing loyalist armadas have ceded the rest of their territory to us."" — Admiral Gial Ackbar, in a meeting of New Republic High Command.
  2. "What was left of the true Empire’s military—what the admiral had called the loyalist forces—was secreted there, on the edge of the Unknown Regions."
  3. ""Your last report suggested the 204th—Shadow Wing—is working with the loyalists."" — A Chancellor's aide, to General Hera Syndulla.
  4. ""If Shadow Wing really is one of the only loyalist units operating outside Coruscant or the Western Reaches, that makes them one of few wild cards the Empire has left to play."" — General Syndulla in a meeting of New Republic High Command.
  5. "If Jakku was won, word would arrive quickly and it wouldn’t be long before the Imperial government surrendered." — General Syndulla's thoughts during the Battle of Jakku.
  6. ""—your recruits from Fedovoi End arrived at Jakku thirty hours ago," the moff said, though Soran struggled to make out the words." — Grand Moff Randd of the Imperial forces on Jakku, to Colonel Soran Keize of the 204th.
  7. ""General Cracken believes the Empire is recalling its remaining mobile battle groups to Jakku."" — Admiral Ackbar in a meeting of New Republic High Command.
  8. "Coruscant remained untouched and untouchable, the isolated Imperial regent and his ragged forces maintaining their occupation of the former capital." — General Syndulla's thoughts during a New Republic High Command meeting.
  9. ""Coruscant is still under our control. If the New Republic fleet is weakened, Imperial forces could punch through to the capital. Build out from there, occupy a wedge of space along one of the major hyperlanes."" — Yrica Quell of the 204th devises a possible strategy to Colonel Keize.

Based off of the information in the novels, some of which I displayed above in quotes for better context, it's clear that the Jakku Imperial remnant is the Galactic Empire in its last remaining strength. I want to say thanks to Lewisr for the valuable help in finding additional information for my arguments, and Erebus Chronus for helping with the discussion leading up to proposing this TC. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 17:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: Thanks to JRT for finding the additional piece of information: "This remnant is like a parasite with its head sunk in the meat of its own certainty, teeth biting tight. It takes months for the fighting to truly end, months for the New Republic soldiers to round up the captives and count the dead, all that time for the Empire's ghost to catch up with the death of its body and realize that the fight is well and truly over."

Based off of this, it's clear that the loyalists on Jakku became a remnant as they kept fighting the New Republic despite the war being over after the Galactic Concordance and not following the remaining Galactic Empire into surrender. As such, I have changed the option of "Keep" into "Merge pre-Galactic Concordance with Galactic Empire and keep." It's clear this TC has changed into keeping. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 19:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge and redirect with Galactic Empire

--Vitus InfinitusTalk 17:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Glad to be of help! This is definitely the correct approach Lewisr (talk) 17:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
JRT2010 (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Per Lew. Glad to have helped with this! :) CIS roundel Erebus Chronus (talk) 17:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree, just because Palptaine's dead doesn't mean it isn't the Empire anymore. Ramsay Sanders (talk) 17:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
OOM 224 ༼༽talk༼༽ 17:53, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Tl;dr, delete anyway because nucanon. Just kidding. Or am I? -- Darth Culator (Talk) 17:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Great idea! --Liverpool92 MeenaTillsHS-GAtrivia(talk) 18:00, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
01miki10 Open comlink 18:01, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
JediMasterMacaroniAdmiral Ackbar RH(Talk) 18:02, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
Impressive research lads. Tommy-Macaroni 18:16, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
NanoLuukeCloning facility 18:47, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge pre-Galactic Concordance information on the Jakku Imperial remnant with Galactic Empire and keep page for new remnant formed afterwards

  1. Per reason stated in the Comments, although this is more like a "Keep and Merge" vote. We should still merge most of what's in the Jakku Imperial remnant with the Galactic Empire for the reasons given above, but the part about an "Imperial remnant continuing to fight on Jakku after the Empire's surrender" means that this article can be kept and won't have to re-direct to the Galactic Empire. JRT2010 (talk) 18:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  2. While there was no Jakku Imperial remnant leading up to the Battle of Jakku, and information regarding that should be removed from the article and merged to Galactic Empire, there was indeed an Imperial remnant on Jakku after the Galactic Concordance; when the one true Empire officially ceased hostilities with the Republic: Aftermath: Empire's End says "This remnant is like a parasite with its head sunk in the meat of its own certainty, teeth biting tight. It takes months for the fighting to truly end, months for the New Republic soldiers to round up the captives and count the dead, all that time for the Empire's ghost to catch up with the death of its body and realize that the fight is well and truly over." OOM 224 ༼༽talk༼༽ 19:01, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  3. Per the above, merge and keep. - AV-6R7 (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  4. Per new information. --Vitus InfinitusTalk 19:23, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  5. That got confusing. But still, glad to have helped. :) CIS roundel Erebus Chronus (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  6. You've altered the deal. I pray you're not altering it any further. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 19:58, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  7. Insert clever TC comment here. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 20:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  8. Lewisr (talk) 20:27, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  9. Ramsay Sanders (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  10. As a remnant of polystarch portion bread. Immi Thrax (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
  11. 01miki10 Open comlink 01:13, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
  12. GalacticRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit Winterz (talk) 01:18, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
  13. 1358 (Talk) 21:58, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  14. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 22:03, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  15. JediMasterMacaroniAdmiral Ackbar RH(Talk) 22:54, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments

  • I'm wavering back and forth between thinking that the Jakku Imperial remnant is just one phase in the Empire's history rather than its own thing, and that it is its own thing when the Empire splintered (the burn-it-all Contingency types like Rax, the reluctantly-giving-ups like Amedda, the never-give-up-never-surrender like Sloane and was seemingly the remnant until Rax did his thing). Plus the internal debate over whether Sloane effing off to the Unknown Regions was/wasn't a continuance of the Empire even though the Galactic Concordance marked the... well, Empire's end. But perhaps all of that, for article purposes, would be covered within the Galactic Empire article. Immi Thrax (talk) 18:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
    • As presented above, the Jakku group were Imperial loyalists (which Mas Amedda was considered part of per Victory's Price), as well as the bulk of the Imperial Navy. All the information would be covered in the Galactic Empire page if it hasn't already been. The information regarding Sloane also is covered on the First Order page since we know that the end result of her going into the Unknown Regions was the First Order Lewisr (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  • We might actually be able to keep this article. In Aftermath: Empire's End, it states (pg. 449): The war ends, the Empire dies, but the battle goes on. Though the cease-fire is signed, the Battle of Jakku still rages. Its forces there refuses to surrender. It goes on, but it shows that there was an Imperial remnant (formed from the Galactic Empire's loyalist forces) on Jakku after the Galactic Concordance was signed. We can merge everything in the Jakku Imperial remnant up to the cease-fire, while keeping the part about the remnant that fought on for several months after the war's official end. JRT2010 (talk) 18:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
    • In addition, Empire's End refers to those forces that continued to fight after the Empire's surrender as an "Imperial remnant" (also pg. 449). JRT2010 (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
      • I agree, the article as it is should largely be merged into Galactic Empire itself, but there is reason to maintain a seperate Jakku Imperial remnant article. - AV-6R7 (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
        • I also agree. At that point after the signing of the Concordance, the remnant has in fact become a remnant through continuing the fight. They've become die hard Imperials. CIS roundel Erebus Chronus (talk) 18:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC)