Forum:SH:Aayla Secura and Wikia's TOU

Forums > Senate Hall archive > SH:Aayla Secura and Wikia's TOU

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:51, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Hi all. I'm here to talk about something that's likely to be controversial. As you may know, we’ve recently been reviewing images that have been uploaded to Wikia, due to repeated ToU violations. Instead of deleting problem images when we get complaints about them, we have started to actively look for and remove them across Wikia. Wookieepedia hasn't been impacted by this so far of course, almost all of your images are non-explicit and your admins do a great job of removing any vandalism.

However, there is one image of Aayla Secura that shows her fully naked. I'm aware that this is an image that's been discussed by the community and that the consensus is to keep it. It's very hard to go against that consensus, but the image is also outside our Terms of Use and needs to be removed.

To be more specific, the Terms of Use state that content must not be "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive [or] profane". Obviously, that is open to a lot of interpretation. But the line we have drawn is that we don't allow shock images, images of sexual acts, or images of nudity. And that includes the Aayla image.

I see that the Breast article has several alternative images. Perhaps one of those can be moved in to the top image spot. The alternative is to use censorship bars or pixelation on the image, but I think that would take the page further away from its intent than an alternative example.

I'm sorry to have to ask for this image's removal and hope you understand the need in this very unusual case.. -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 19:05, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

  • For the record, Wikia also hosts the "Naked Wiki", complete with more than a few completely nude and irreverent real people in real daily life, which is far, far more "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, and profane" than an official Lucasfilm-licensed piece of artwork. I'm failing to understand the logic here, other than you guys have decided to pander to one of our more immature, unsupervised visitors who just couldn't get over this image. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 19:19, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to speak for the entire community, as a Wookieepedia bureaucrat: No. We will not remove it, and we will fight you. If we have to, we will resort to the methods we have learned from our enemies over the last seven years. Thank you, and have a Wookiee-tastic day. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 19:20, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Just to make short comment about this: we cannot have descriptive image of a breast without nudity. We could have descriptive image of a garment used to cover breast without nudity, but I would rather not go to that direction. (I don't even begin wondering how only female breast is the issue here) (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 19:23, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
Also a followup question: what part in the image is what is the problem? A nipple? Areola? Some other part of the image? Also I'm interested to know is that image considered obscene, or pornographic, abusive, offensive or profane? I'm asking as I suspect this is partly a cultural thing and there's no really possibility to adhere the rule (making rule a non-rule from my POV) if there's no way to pinpoint what is the problem. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 19:57, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
really, this again??? If I didn't know better, I'd say we were getting trolled. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 19:36, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Toprawa and Ralltiir: That wiki has already had several images deleted and the only reason other images are still there is that they haven't been reviewed yet. The will be gone as soon as they show on the review tool (or sooner if I have time to do it manually). There are literally millions of images on Wikia, so it's going to take a while until we are caught up with checking them all.

Tm_T: There are other images on the page that could be moved up, and likely more available that could also illustrate the article well. My question would be: if this one unusually explicit image had not been introduced into canon, how would you illustrate this article?

As we are an American company, we have to go by US norms and mores. That means that female breasts are considered a problem, while male chest are seen as just fine. I don't know why either, but it's the reality we live with.

As I mentioned above, the line is no shock images, images of sexual acts, or images of nudity. "Nudity" includes visible nipples and areola on females, visible genitals or the full pubic area, and fully naked butts. As to which word we use to cover this - it's a combination of the terms. What's meant by that line is "excessively explicit stuff", and it really doesn't make sense to consider each word in isolation

Omicron: I know :-/ I saw the previous discussions and really hoped that we wouldn't need to have this one. But when it came down to it, it is outside the ToU and has to go -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 20:22, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

  • So let me get this straight: of the 52,793 images uploaded to the Wook, spread across 97,365 articles, you have an issue with exactly ... one? And you freely admit that there is a wiki called Naked Wiki that appears to upload nude images on a semi-daily basis? And you take no action but to slap them on the wrists and delete the images in question? And so you come over here and demand an image removal? Way to get priorities straight, there Wikia. We have one, they have several, I can see why we were more important. So, I assume this image of Michelangelo's David and Nymph with Morning Glory Flowers will be removed from the Psychology Wiki? And if you want to argue they are protected as art, I'll argue black and blue that they're offensive to me. Because the Aayla is an artistic image. Of an alien, not a Human. Tell me, if it was a nude Whiphid, or Baragwin with identifiable breasts, would we really be having this conversation? - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 20:42, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, in that case, there are several excellent candidates for you to choose from to start deleting first. My favorites are the Group of people mooning (up since 2006), "Complete Pumpkin Debauchery" (up since 2007), Aalya Secura lookalike taking a bath (up since 2006), Four naked women standing around (up since 2006), Male human buttocks (up since 2006), Naked street baby (up since 2006), Naked guy gardening (up since 2006), or the Creepy old guy struggling to get a stiffy (up since September 2012). Since we're not allowed to show nudity even in the form of artistic expression, as I would clearly classify this Aayla Secura image, there are also a few classical paintings of nude boys boating (up since 2006) or some classical Greco-Roman pieces (up since 2006). Since you guys are so intent on enforcing the TOU for images, I find it a bit strange that you simply haven't gotten around to handling any of these images for over six years now. A single complaint from a trouble-making Wookieepedian over our harmless image couldn't have been the impetus for you to suddenly start caring, could it? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 20:45, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure it helps to get distracted by the process but... here's some details. We've only been doing this proactive image reviewing for a relatively short time, and haven't yet fully gone though all images. There were several million images to review, and each needs to be looked at by a reviewer - we can't automate this. Wookieepedia wasn't in the first batch, but images from here are showing up now (obviously, with the vast majority being marked as "OK"). We're also reviewing new images from all wikis before going back to older images. Because of this reverse order, it's actually going to be more likely that you will find very old problem images than new ones (although we aren't yet getting through all the new ones either - we're working on it!). On occasion, we go though all of a wiki's images manually (which looks to be needed for Naked), but mostly we get them as the review tool presents them to us. We still have a large number of images in the queue - including some wikis that, like Wookieepedia, have only just been added.
This specific image turned up on the tool recently. Because I was already aware of the image, I marked it as OK until we could have this discussion. One reason I was aware of it is that it had been one of several example images we used when discussing what was and wasn't OK. The other is that it's the top result a Google search on "Wikia breast" and so has been used at least 4 times on various wikis in exactly the way you are using the links images above ("these exist, so why can't our image(s)").
I'm certainly not claiming that there aren't worse images than this one on Wikia. We've got a lot of work to do, and aren't doing it in order of explicitness - we can't know what's out there until we get to it. But we can't pause on this one until we've done all the others either -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 21:32, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Cue the "Not this shit again" image... And if this character can't even figure how to add an image to their signature correctly, I'd hazard a guess that we're probably just getting trolled. — DigiFluid(Whine here) 21:36, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

  • Firstly, Digi, sannse is Wikia staff. We're not being trolled. Secondly, sannse - you're using an automated tool? Surely, the fact that the Naked Wiki is so named would have placed it as a higher priority on a to-do list and be done manually before anything else? Thirdly, you didn't answer the question - are the images of classical art and nudes to be removed under your guidelines? - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 21:43, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry DigiFluid, it's the standard staff badge, but Wookieepedia has custom settings for "external" images. I'll just switch it to text for now.
Cavalier One: The tool automatically presents images for checking, the actual checking has to be done by human eyes. And yes, in retrospect, we should have set Naked Wiki to be reviewed earlier.
On classical art: In another of those absurdities of public mores, modern images are less likely to be considered "artistic nudity" than classical or ancient art. If this were a very famous painting from 100 years ago, it would probably be shown in full on the news if it were stolen. But this more modern art, while beautiful, would almost certainly not be shown in the same way as classical art. We can't be in the position of being art critics deciding which piece of art is good enough to allow nudity (consider fanart!). So the line for "artistic nudity" has to be a similar one as for that hypothetical news program - if it's classical/historical/famous art used in context, it's OK. But the beauty of other images can't be a factor in allowing nudity -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 22:39, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
If you're splitting hairs, I really don't see what the difference is between "artistic" nudity and "porn" nudity. Nudity is nudity. So, instead of wasting our time rambling on about this, why don't you take care of the so many other nude pictures and topics spread across the various wikis, including Wikipedia. Your argument on ours being "worse" than other nudities makes absolutely no sense. If you really want us to take it down, show us a better example of how Wikia wants to do this wiki-wide, and not just bug Wookieepedia about it. Because we have better things to do than listen to you complain about a picture that could be on someone else's wiki and never get noticed. No one is going to take you seriously until you can absolutely prove that you're not being bias against Wookieepedia about this.—Cal JediInfinite Empire (Personal Comm Channel) 22:49, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
So, basically, the answer is that some images will be allowed to flagrantly violate your own ToU because they are considered to be "classical art." I call this hypocritical. If you're going to enforce your ToU, do it fairly and across the entire board. If you aren't, then leave this single image alone and delete images that really are offensive. There is no difference between the image of Aayla and the Nymph with Morning Glory Flowers. Woman? Check. Artistic rendition? Check. Breast and nipple? Check. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 22:52, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

I see no reference to the words "nude" or "nudity" in the terms of use. Only a vague reference to not posting content which is "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, profane" which is highly subjective, and the community overwhelmingly decided this is not. As I see it, Wikia has two choices at this point. A: Accept that this image is artistic, and therefore allow it to continue to be used for the same reason you allow Michaelangelo's David to be used to illustrate another wiki, or B: Fight an unwinnable war. Honestly, I almost hope they choose B, because I think it will be fun. I've always wondered what the appeal of being a vandal is, and using their techniques in support of community consensus should prove utterly fascinating. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 00:55, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

This argument again? Alright, rather than repeat ad nauseum what everyone else has said, I will just state my opinion: Aayla Secura's form is ART. Nothing more. If we cannot display an artistic nude, which, according to what has been presented already, doesn't really violate any TOU, then your singling us out is just that: You are singling us out. Did some other user come crying about the picture? What are you going to do next? Squelch other art forms on Wikia? Where do you draw the line? Art nudes are bad? Michelangelo's David is bad? How far will you go? Should this be taken to Congress? Are you going to storm art galleries, next? Do you realize what this boils down to, a card that I really, absolutely hate to play but feel that I must? Stomping on free expression. Aayla Secura's image is free expression. The artist painted her in that manner and got the green light by Lucasfilm to do so and the artwork was published in a readily-accessible book. The image was scanned and used to depict a perfectly sound anatomical feature. The image itself is tasteful and well done. I happen to appreciate the quality of the artwork. And to force us to take it down because some uppity user couldn't get their way the first time around is ridiculous. You are stomping on not only our free expression and right to display canonical artwork for the purpose of illustrating an informative article in the most appropriate and accurate way possible, but you are stomping on the artist's free expression by saying that his painting, his artwork is "bad."

In short, I will fight this as well. This image is not "obscene". This image is not "pornographic." It is not "abusive" or "offensive" or "profane". It is a painting that is reminiscent of Renaissance work. And your decree that it is anything more than that is ridiculous and downright insulting to the artist who painted it and the people who admire it. Your singling us out for ONE IMAGE is also ridiculous. Get your priorities in line, Wikia. Right now, you are just the playground bully, and I will speak to someone higher up in your chain of command about your behavior. Trak Nar Ramble on 02:12, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Not that my opinion counts for much, but speaking as a Wookieepedian who is what contemporary society considers a religious bigot so socially and sexually reactionary as to freely and frequently denounce democracy and human rights as illusion and falsehood, and who therefore can be presumed to belong to such factions as would be expected to find this picture unacceptable...I have no quarrel with it. The bigot has spoken. Karohalva (talk) 02:35, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

As we take our stand....... DOWN IN WOOKIEELAND. *saxophone solo* Ride or die, son. IFYLOFD (Floyd's crib) 02:47, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Not only the "infringing" picture is officially licensed work of art, but it is also just perfectly illustrative of the subject of the article. Say, if you intend to go on a crusade against this, what are you going to do with wikipedia articles such as "human penis" or... "breast"? You may argue those pics are being included for encyclopedic reasons, and I'd agree with you on that completely. However, the same applies here. Star Wars is indeed fictional, but Wookieepedia has a pretension for encyclopedism, and such exaggerated censorship is against the very spirit of knowledge. One may consider this pretension ridiculous, but the Wook's good reputation partly stems from it. As far as I'm concerned, the "breast" page should stay as it is, because the use of the Aayla picture is accurately descriptive of the subject. You just don't censor science, even "make-believe" science. --LelalMekha (talk) 09:26, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

So nudity is not allowed in art anymore? That's thick. Are you going to take out this one too, because Syal Antilles Fel clearly states that the characters in the piece of art are nude. Sorry if I can't take this entirely seriously...--Dionne Jinn (Something to say?) 09:39, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Quick note to all: using Wikipedia articles and Wikia not censoring those as an argument here doesn't make much sense as this is Wikia, not Wikipedia. (; – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 12:53, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

  • It makes sense in that Wikia should just stop singling us out. Why should we get punished for something that Wikipedia gets to do? If they want to stop this, let them show it by attacking their biggest wiki, Wikipedia, rather than coming here and bugging us just because they don't like us.—Cal JediInfinite Empire (Personal Comm Channel) 13:21, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
    • Cal, I think Tm is saying that Wikia and Wikipedia are two separate entities. Using Wikipedia examples is inaccurate. Wikia has no control over Wikipedia, and vice versa. They have their own set of ToUs. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 13:34, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting fact for consideration: The Aayla Secura image is a revision of an earlier award-winning piece by the same artist. Just throwing that out there, for those uncultured jerks who want to argue that Aayla doesn't merit consideration as an art piece. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 14:25, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

  • My two cents: We are a Star Wars wiki and that Breast image is an officially licensed, George Lucas approved piece of art work. It is not porn and it is certainly not the type of stuff you see elsewhere. It is legitimate and if it was fan created, then I would think twice about it. As per what Tope said above, some of our visitors have a hard time getting past that image. Pretty much, at this point, it is really getting annoying. That image has been around since 2010 and I find it hard to believe that Wikia is putting its foot down two years after its original uploading. JangFett (Talk) 14:49, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Cal Jedi: I think you misunderstood me. I said "I'm certainly not claiming that there aren't worse images than this one on Wikia". That's a double negative, so in other words: I agree there are worse images on Wikia. We're working on that.

There are a couple of things I need to clarify, and then I'll give a more general update

Firstly, Wikipedia is not a part of Wikia (or vice versa). They are a totally separate organisation with different ToUs. So the images that they allow are not related in any way to the ones we allow.

On examples of the active image review on Wikia: examples of my deletions include one on Desperate Housewives, two on Marvel Database, and seven on Scratchpad. Most large wikis don't have nudity and have admins that clear problem uploads quickly, so most of the deletions have been on smaller wikis (which I don't have bookmarked)

I've also been having similar conversation to this one on various wikis including Inciclopedia (see also their forums), TV Tropes Mirror and Yowwiki (not much of a conversation on the latter two, but they are two of those I still have open in a tab right now). Images aren't being reviewed in strictly chronological order, so there are likely to be plenty of older ones that we still need to review.

Wookieepedia is something of a special case, but in the opposite direction. It's one of those that I'm giving extra attention and discussion time to, because it's an important wiki and I'm aware this is a very important issue for you.

Trak Nar: I'm certainly not intending to come across as a bully. I'm here talking, rather than just deleting, because we value this wiki and it's community. And this isn't just me talking, the decision to review all images on Wikia was a company one, I've just been asked to work in this area and to discuss it with wikis as needed.

I also should make clear that ee haven't had a complaint about this specific image. We've always removed images that breached our ToU - but we usually only knew about them from a complaint. But now we are looking at every image on Wikia (tens of millions of them) to review and remove images that breach the ToU.

So, on to where we are at the moment. I've gathered up all the comments and feedback, and have taken it to my bosses. I've emphasized your strength of feeling on this, and your anger at the potential deletion, as well as the details of your arguments. They have everything, and I hope to hear back from them soon. I'll return here to update you, as soon as I have more information. Thanks all -- -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 21:33, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

  • You really need to stop pretending like there's no reason this image is being singled out. And you need to be crystal clear on the fact that if you do decide to attempt to delete the image, Wikia will have to form a "Department of Keeping Breasts off of Wookieepedia," because the fight will never end. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 21:51, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
Darth Culator: I'm not pretending anything. Please read above where I said (in part) "The other is that it's the top result a Google search on "Wikia breast" and so has been used at least 4 times on various wikis in exactly the way you are using the link[ed] images above". Darthpedia is one of those times (I think Uncyclopedia was another, but don't recall for sure).
And please stop it with the threats. They aren't helpful. Unlike the reasoned and reasonable arguments others from Wookieepedia have put forward. -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 02:02, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not making threats. I'm trying to make sure you know what you're getting into if your masters fail to listen to reason, as usual. I was elected bureaucrat on my promise to do everything I could to keep Wikia from subverting the will of the community. Wookieepedia voted for me because they hate Wikia that much. I need to make it clear to you that one way or another, that image will always be there, as long as the majority of Wookieepedians want it there. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 02:20, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Six Degrees of Aayla Secura's Boob

Figured I'd start a new discussion, to keep things from getting cluttered...

Last night, after I had taken a moment to calm down and give myself time to think clearly, I spoke with another Wikia staff member and inquired about other channels to get this resolved as quickly as possible, along with whom would be the most appropriate person to approach with this matter. After some research (thanks Culator, for inadvertently doing some of that for me), I drafted up an e-mail, which I sent:

In regards to the Aayla Secura image... This image, painted by contemporary portrait artist Evan Wilson, is a beautifully-done and tasteful nude. Wilson's style includes sleeping nudes, usually in kimonos. They are not displayed pornographically, but rather as serene figures lounging peacefully. His other paintings are done in soft tones, and the figures are not posed in any provocative manner.

Nudity in contemporary sci-fi/fantasy artwork is a common theme, and many works are done quite tastefully. Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell are famous for their scantily-clad females and nudes, often paired with dragons or even fighting. I have a number of sci-fi art books which contain nude studies. And the Aayla Secura image in question was printed within a readily-accessible book; a collection of artwork from other industry artists, in a project that was given the green light by Lucasfilm.

Also, I would like to point out that the official Star Wars site does link to Wookieepedia's article on Aayla Secura, as evidenced here: http://www.starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/aaylasecura/ Granted, the image in question is not on the main article, but it is in the gallery, which a link is displayed in the article. If we go by this example, it take all of two clicks to find that image. One, to go from the official site to the article, and the second to reach the gallery. This accomplishes two things: It shows that Lucasfilm, who approved of the image in the first place, is not overly concerned about it, even though their primary demographic lately has been children. It also demonstrates that Lucasfilm acknowledges Wookieepedia's existence and involvement with chronicling their canon.

This image has become a hot-button topic here at Wookieepedia, with a few users wanting it removed on the grounds of Aayla's exposed breast. And each time, we reminded them that yes, this image is official. Lucasfilm gave it their approval. They know it exists and they wanted it to exist. Secondly, Wookieepedia is not a censored medium, nor should it be when Lucasfilm employees themselves have provided us with reliable sources for the GFFA equivalent of some rather coarse swear words, for example. Also, the image is used to depict an article subject, and when depicting an article's subject, one should use the best representative available. That representative just so happened to be Aayla's exposed breast.

After some research, I have found that the Aayla image is based on a similar image by the same artist. "The Vermilion Kimono by Evan Wilson had won honorable mention in the figurative category for the Art Renewal Center 2007 International ARC Salon.[1] This is a lovely image, and it is not displayed in any provocative manner. The female form is a common subject for portraiture and figure drawing—I, myself, often draw nude studies. It is a good way to learn the form.

As there happens to be other images that could be considered "questionable" (such as this one), then I find it a bit confusing why Aayla has been targeted for removal. Her image is not provocative. She is displayed in a relaxed pose, painted with warm tones that contrast beautifully with her blue skin, and her one breast is exposed. And that breast does not have the same amount of detail as her model in the above "Vermilion Kimono". Though, if the exposed nipple continues to be a source of contention (I am fully aware of Wookieepedia's reputation), I am willing to pursue a compromise. As an artist, I would hate to see this image removed on grounds that I find to be highly subjective, and as such, I will admit that I have an emotional investment in this case. However, if we could reach a compromise that would not result in the image's removal, I would be willing to work toward that. I have come up with at least one alternative option, and I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Thank you.

-Britt "Trak Nar" Roth

This accomplished a number of things: One, providing sources and examples of nudes in contemporary artwork, including award-winning and well-known artists and their work; two, showing that if we were to play Six Degrees of Aayla Secura's Boob, StarWars.com is only two degrees away, which shows that this really isn't anything that they are concerned over, since they approved of the image to begin with; and three, that we (at least I) are willing to work toward a compromise to maintain a professional business relationship without causing things to fall apart over an image. The third item, honestly, is the one we should be most concerned about. As I mentioned in the e-mail, we have a reputation. And it is not a good one.

This is the reply that I had received:

Hi Britt -

Thanks so much for sending such a well thought out message - I really do appreciate it. As Sannse has posted on Wookiee, we are waiting to hear back from our CEO on the image and will have a decision for you tomorrow.

Again, I want to stress that it was a pleasure getting your email; that you took the time to construct a well thought out argument really has made a difference for me.

Thanks,

Jen Burton
VP, Community Support

We'll see what happens tomorrow. Now, I point this reply out because it also accomplishes a number of things, the first and foremost showing that if we are willing to work together to reach a compromise and not allow our emotional investment in this to cloud our judgement, we can reach our goals. I have come to at least one option, which I mentioned on IRC last night, however while I tip my hand, I know not to show my cards. Basically, my goal in this is to see the picture remain. And in order for it to remain, I will work toward a compromise, whatever it may be, one that will not detract from the image, but will also satisfy the Wikia staff. Personally, I would rather leave the image untouched, but at this point, I'd rather it not devolve into all-out war over an image, and I would much rather resolve this quickly and as peacefully as possible. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:15, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

  • Actually, what I would really like, even if Wikia suddenly dropped the subject and never spoke of it again, would be to have one of those warning screens for the breast article like they have over on the somehow-not-TOU-violating Naked Wiki. As for modifying the image, not so much. As in, not ever. I mean it. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 03:29, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
    • That would be another viable option, and I would prefer that over modifying the image. I really don't want to retouch the image, even if it is a subtle edit. Doing so would deface a canonical image and censor a beautiful piece of artwork. To me, that is the same as going into a gallery and putting mosaics on the nudes. It ruins the image. I would rather the image remain, untouched, and the matter resolved.
However, I don't want this to become a war, and that is why I even suggested a simple retouching on IRC as an option. The warning screen, though, would be a far better and more viable option. If we had to go that route, I would rather it be a simple warning and nothing more. But, like I said, we'll find out tomorrow. In the meantime, we should at the very least try to keep a clear head about this. I'm trying to resolve the matter through other channels, and I'm trying to do so peacefully. I would rather these channels not be used as part of the war. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:39, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for posting this Trak Nar :) Your email was first to mind when I said "reasoned and reasonable" above. I'm heading for bed now, but will talk to you all tomorrow. Good night -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 04:20, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
sannse, to add to this reasoned and reasonable debate.

I've become aware of at least one complaint relating to this image that was submitted via LucasFilm’s official contact: info@lucasfilm.com that has yet to be fully investigated.

The vote that occurred to keep the image is also severely flawed. There are approx 4 million wookieepedia accounts. Yes, a number of which are no longer active, but by no means did the vote that occur demonstrate that the majority of users approve of this image. It demonstrated that a small minority, who were aware of this image and the vote upon it, overwhelmingly supported each other, to pass their own private agenda. The average wookieepedia user would not have even been aware of a vote, and many continue to be oblivious to the fact that they actually have a say on this wiki. Perhaps, if votes appeared in a more obvious and public manner on the main page or at least visible on the recent activity page more would vote.

And to my fellow (soon to be ex) wookieepedians;

Firstly let me state that, I make no effort to disguise the fact that I, personally, do not believe that this image belongs on a wiki of a franchise that continues to be targeted towards the youth market, despite the arguments for and against.

Secondly, to those of you who insist that this image is "canon", it is not. The image is "official" yes, in that it was published in a licensed LucasFilm product, however this does not mean that the image is "canon" as it is an "out-of-universe" image. Please stop referring to it as such as I believe most of this debate has spun out of control due to people's confusion between the terms "canon" and "official", and the roles with which these two definitions play when deciding the fate of content on this wiki. (As a side note: if everyone is so convinced that it is canon why then is it that the image is not featured on the Aaylaa Secura page? Is it that, you may draw more unnecessary attention to something that should not have passed as being acceptable in the first place?)

Thirdly, George Lucas provided a foreword for Star Wars: Visions, however, nowhere does it explicitly state that he was responsible for the selection of each and every image that was published in said Star Wars: Visions. But rather, it is implied in recent sources, that his input was severely ramped up for later publications in this line such as Star Wars: Illustration. And finally, before I bow out of this wiki once and for all, may the force be with you (but not all of you – you know who you are...), always. Jartka'irn (talk) 11:18, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Just to address a few points in this; there are not four million Wookieepedia accounts. There are, according to the Local list users special page 25,283 registered accounts that have edited or been created on the Wook. Perhaps you are thinking of Wikia accounts overall? More than a few of these accounts were probably created years ago, and many are probably vandalism and trolling accounts. The flawed vote, as you call it, was quite possibly one of the highest voting turn outs on the Wook. We generally average between 15-20 votes per CT. The "small minority" included a wide range of users ranging from BCs to regular editors. The "private agenda" was, lets face it, anything but private. We have been vocal in defending the image and the right to keep Wookieepedia uncensored for years. I think you do Wookieepedians a disservice by implying they are unaware of their voting rights and ability to participate in wiki affairs. If this was the case, then we would not have had a flood of new users participating in activities such as the GAN or FAN pages. The vote was highly visible on the article talk page in question at the time of the vote, and appeared in the RC lists as all edits do. If I interpret Wikia statistics correctly, 667 registered editors were either active or logged in during the month the vote was held. Of them, 542 submitted content in the form of an edit. Of those editors, only 211 contributed more than 5 edits. And of them, only 40 edited over 100 times. So, the vote, with a total of 39 active voters (1 support, 36 against, 2 neutral) appears to represent the majority of the most active users at the time. - Cavalier OneFarStar(Squadron channel) 11:56, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
Math won't help. He just can't accept that the anti-breast prudes are a teeny-tiny bunch of losing losers who lost and kept losing, and can't get their way except by whining louder and louder until someone does something to shut them up. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 13:23, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
Even so, let's also note that the two neutral users still wanted the image of a breast kept, with cropping to focus on the subject. That brings it up to 38 out of 40 who'd be against removal. 95 Percent. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 01:03, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
The reason, Jartka'irn, that the image is not featured on Aayla's article is simply because there is no room for it, nor is there a purpose in her article for it to be displayed. That is all. Trak Nar Ramble on 02:22, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've heard back now, and the Wikia managers have agreed that the image falls under “artistic” nudity and can remain in it’s current context.

I'm sorry my initial message didn't give some space for other options, that was the information I had at the time. But some very good arguments here and via email have resulted in a change of heart, and so I'm happy to be able to back off and leave the image be.

Thanks to all those that participated productively in this discussion -- sannse @wikia (help forum | blog) 20:09, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

  • That's excellent news, thank you. I actually do still wonder, though, if we could get some kind of Javascript-based warning message on just the breast article and/or just the image information page to ward off whiny babies who will inevitably spawn future complaints. They had something like that on the Naked Wiki. Obviously we'd have to have a CT before implementing it, but it would be good to lay down the technical framework for it. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 20:19, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
    • I may as well post the e-mail reply:
Hi Britt -
Sannse is posting now on the Wookiee forum, but I wanted to let you know personally that we've elected to keep Aayla's image (in part due to your argument).
Thanks again for being such a great member of both Wookiee and the larger Wikia community.
Needless to say, I was cheering! I will be sure to cite this forum and these e-mails as evidence to support the image, in the event that others do once again try to argue for its removal. I'd like to thank Spectrum 13, Sci-Fi Art Now, and Sci-Fi Art: A Graphic History as my evidence, along with all the contemporary artists whom I've either specifically named or referenced to indirectly. They helped to illustrate that the nude body can be a beautiful thing. Trak Nar Ramble on 02:30, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • Guys, even though Wikia can be more than frustrating, I do believe some of the comments on here are a little to direct and insulting toward Sannse. She is simply doing the job she is given. We cannot judge her for that. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it her fault? No. Sannse is not Wikia. Give her a break. I gives Wookieepedia a bad and unprofessional name when we act like children toward an authority of ours. Now, I'm pretty conservative, and a Christian at that, and I don't think this image is really that provocative. I'm glad to see it gets to stay. And thank you, Sannse, for all your hard work in helping resolve this. We appreciate it, even if some of us don't show it. MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 04:51, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • I also apologize for my first response, as I do have an emotional investment in that image, and I felt that it was being attacked unfairly. I behaved irrationally and I apologize for that. However, I calmed down, spoke with other Wikia staff, learned more about this, and then inquired about the proper channels to get this resolved quickly and cleanly. Once I received those proper channels, I did some research, formulated a reasoned argument, and tipped my hand just slightly to show that I was willing to cooperate. And within a few days, the matter was resolved. No getting uppity (except to start, which I apologize for), no trading of insults, no rash judgments, and most importantly, the image remains untouched.
Wookieepedia does not have a very good reputation amongst the Wikia staff. My working behind the curtain was an attempt to salvage a professional relationship, or forge a new one. This method had resolved the matter quickly and painlessly, and I think that we all need to reflect on this and learn from it. Emotion only gets in the way. Once we delve deeper, learn more, and take a step back, we are able to think clearly. Inquire about alternative methods to achieve your goals or speak with the right people. Do a bit of research to support your argument. Come up with alternatives and show that you are willing to cooperate. Ask for the staff's feedback and what they would suggest and make it known that you are willing to work with them to achieve your goals.
This is not a war. We are not the Rebellion. We are a professional entity and we should conduct ourselves as such. We should keep in mind that we have a reputation, and we would rather that reputation be a good one. Thus, we need to show everyone that we are professionals, that we behave like rational adults, and we do not allow our emotions to cloud our judgment, we do not allow ourselves to engage in a "war", and we most certainly do not cast judgment on people who are not here to defend themselves, because they have a difference of opinion. That is not how a professional entity works, and that is not how Wookieepedia should act. At CVI, we conducted ourselves as serious fans who take our work to heart and are open and professional. Let's perpetuate that attitude. Don't just use it for our public outings, use it for everything. Wookieepedia may be staffed by nerds, but we will not devolve into nerd rage and petty behavior. We are professional. Let us not forget that. Trak Nar Ramble on 05:07, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
^That is why you are an admin, Trak. Very well put. :) MasterFredCommerce Guild(Whatever) 05:13, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • Regarding Culator's request I threw together a very rough script to accomplish this as a proof of concept, you can try it out by going to your monobook.js, wikia.js or common.js (if you want it to load in both skins for testing) and add the following line: mw.loader.load( 'http://starwars.wikia.com/index.php?title=User:Grunny/aayla.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript' ); then clear your browser's cache and visit the Breast article. We'd obviously clean up the script and make the button more descriptive. Note that once you click show you have to remove a cookie called "showAaylaImage" to get the image to be hidden with the script again. To remove just one cookie in Firefox you go to Options > Privacy > Show Cookies... > starwars.wikia.com then select the showAaylaImage cookie and click remove cookie. In Chrome, go to Settings > Show advanced settings > Content settings > All cookies and site data... > starwars.wikia.com then select the showAaylaImage cookie and click remove. Let me know if there are any issues. Cheers, grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 05:39, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
I also applaud Trak Nar for excellent approach on this, I think I had similarly directed attempt but as usual I failed horribly. Great thing our community is full of talents, even when it comes to diplomacy and human interactions. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 14:13, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
Sheep attempting diplomacy with wolves is going to end up with the same result every time until the sheep evolve fangs of their own. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 14:22, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
I prefer to think of myself as the sheepdog. I can bite when I need to, but if I can resolve a matter without aggressive negotiations, then I will pursue a more diplomatic route. In the long run, such a route is better for our reputation. Trak Nar Ramble on 02:24, October 15, 2012 (UTC)
  • I actually found one of the comments above amusing that referred to Star Wars as a "franchise that continues to be targeted towards the youth market." Many tuned in to the Clone Wars on Cartoon Network forget how varied and diverse an audience Lucas is reaching. Therefore, TCW fans may not realize the groundbreaking controversy that Lucas made during the filming of his original trilogy, with things like the the Leia bikini and Jabba the Hutt's suggestive advances toward her. Or what about Yarna D'al Gargan's six-breasted figure that Kenner felt was to controversial to put on shelves? The franchise does not shy away from groundbreaking movements that are artistic, albeit controversial. Therefore, it is good to see that we are archiving the existing Star Wars canon content without allowing personal opinion to color the material. —GethralkinHyperwave 05:11, October 14, 2012 (UTC)