Forum:CT:Force powers capitalization

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The result of the debate was: determine each Force power individually. Grunny (Talk) 07:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, all Force powers in various sources have always been treated as a general noun rather than a proper noun. This means that Force powers are always written in the lower-case (besides "Force") with the exception of powers with unique names such as Morichro and Malacia or specific "arts" such as Art of the Small and Art of Movement. Otherwise, Force powers have, as far as I've known, been treated as a general noun. Of course, as is the habit of Star Wars sources, Force powers are always capitalized when being used as a title or subtitle, so that doesn't count. However, nearly all our Force powers articles uses upper-case and treats them as proper nouns, which likewise seems to go against canon, which appears to say otherwise. Now, honestly, I have only the Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force as a reference, but I have yet to find a source that establishes otherwise, and I think The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. A few users have pointed out that we should just change each individual Force power article depending on what a canonical source writes it as. However, some Force powers have practically only been named as titles for its corresponding section without ever appearing elsewhere. Moreover, I don't think the issue is actually whether a Force power is canonically supposed to be written capitalized or not on an individual basis, it's whether Force powers are canonically treated as general nouns or proper nouns. This is in addition to it being nearly obvious that they are general nouns (you're not going to have to find out whether its canonical for every blaster weapon on an individual basis to be written as either E-11 blaster rifle or E-11 Blaster Rifle if at least 10 other instances writes it as DL-44 heavy blaster pistol, DC-15A blaster rifle, etc., you'd go for the obvious consistency)

So far, I've seen mind trick, Force speed, burst of speed, alter mind, Force lightning, Force push/pull, Force camouflage, Force choke, battle-meld, Force leap, Force healing and a bunch of others. Now, if you scan the articles, most of them still use them as proper nouns, although I've attempted to correct most of them (particularly the stated ones above). In any case, this has really, really been bothering me, and I'd like to get some help on correcting this, but I'm not always willing to take the initiative because 1) I'm not sure if everyone in the community agrees with me and 2) it's just too tiresome and I've been very, very busy lately.

But I really want all these to be actually consistent. It doesn't make sense, for instance, to have Force push and all the others listed written lower-cased when we have Force Scream, Force Weapon, Force Sight, Force Sense, Alter Environment and all the others written upper-cased. It just isn't consistent. Cyfiero 05:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Treat all Force powers as general nouns (with exceptions of ones with unique names) unless a power is established otherwise

  1. Per my comments above, unless someone can provide a source that says otherwise. By unique names, I also mean including Art of the Small, etc. alongside the ones named Tapas, Malacia, etc. Per my comments below, some sources don't say clearly, so some action must be taken. Cyfiero 05:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 07:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
  3. MauserComlink 07:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
    I could be mistaken, however, in KOTOR 1, all of the instances where I can recall them showing the name are in full capitals (FORCE WHIRLWIND). Perhaps in the description of the power, it shows them in standard (Force Whirlwind or Force whirlwind, for example) capitalization. That said, in most book sources, they don't even give names to the individual manners of telekinesis. And they don't feel the need to state, "Darth so-and-so used Force Grip on Lt. No-name." They describe, instead of naming. They're applications of telekinesis, not spells, in the case of most powers. SkyWolf 16:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC) (Vote struck per policy)

Treat all Force powers as proper nouns

Determine each Force power individually

  1. Let canon dictate capitalisation. Use whatever the source says. SoresuMakashi(Everything I tell you is the truth) 07:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. It troubles me, Cyfiero, that you say "as far as you know" Force powers have always been treated as general nouns, and that you think this is how it is usually done. Forgive me if it seems to me that you haven't done a very good job of researching this outside of pretty much Wookieepedia itself. Until I see some consistent canonical basis for definitively going one way or another, I'm not sure a hard-and-fast policy is appropriate. Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Well... have you read anything down on the comments section...? Because I'm pretty sure this issue is more gramatical than canonical. It's like saying whether "sword" or "moon" or "planet" should be capitalized or not. I see for you're saying, but the problem is mainly the fact that due to my lack of sources, I've only been able to research Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force and several games. But believe me when I say that I haven't once used Wookieepedia itself as a researching basis. And I see the logic in this option, which is why I was hoping that the options could be revised as to accomodate both this option and the first one. Cyfiero 01:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Actually Tope, honestly I think the main reason why I am reluctant to determine each Force power individually is simply that I can't determine each Force power individually. I just don't have enough sources nor afford them. I mean the only one I really truly is TEGTTF but otherwise no. And I probably would vote for this if it weren't for the fact that it seems like I'm the only user bothering to verify each Force power. And perhaps if it comes down to that, maybe I'll just CT each Force power without a canonical verification [like Mauser, keep up with the perseverance with the soldier types! ;-)] because like I said below with my comments to Soresu, some really don't say. But if I was sure that I'm not going to be the only one bothering with this issue (because it sure really is bothering me being the unfortunate perfectionist I am), then I really won't mind going through each and every Force power. But as of now, since I'm the only one, and I lack the sources to do so, I just would much rather go with the "obvious consistency." Cyfiero 02:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Frankly, it's not about whether you can get to the sources or not. It's about what's right. Besides, I'm sure other users with the sources you require would be happy to help you out with this sort of thing. Just ask them on IRC. SoresuMakashi(Everything I tell you is the truth) 08:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Frankly, I don't really mind either way anymore and would now be more than happy to stand neutral in this. I mean I see the logic in both sides, and it's too conflicting to be really clear. Although, honestly, I don't know what you mean by what's "right," since I think it's more right to be grammatically correct in English. Um... I forgot why I never went on IRC, but I think I had trouble getting it to work or downloading or something. In any case, I'm too busy lately to handle anything on Wookieepedia... and I probably wouldn't be working here for another few months or even the whole summer... Cyfiero 03:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
          • Notice though, Soresu, that I said that that was the "main reason why I am reluctant to determine each Force power individually" I didn't say that was the main reason why I chose to vote as I did. If you see it from both perspectives, both sides are technically "right" in one way or another, and I was merely explaining why I would prefer one way than the other. But in general, there really isn't anything wrong about treating all Force powers as general nouns unless a source says otherwise, because of the established canonical consistency. Cyfiero 04:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  3. Imperialles 00:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  4. Per Soresu. Grunny (Talk) 08:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  5. Jonjedigrandmaster (Jujiggum) 13:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  6. Canon itself needs to get it straightened out. -- Riffsyphon1024 05:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Wait, I'm just wondering. You guys do know that that's exactly what the first option is doing right? Going with canon? Basically, we're going to treat all Force powers as general nouns unless canon says otherwise. Therefore, it is exactly the same thing as this option. The only difference is that because some canon aren't straighten out it wouldn't really matter either way for some, because canon doesn't actually say for some Force powers. So for the ones where we have absolutely no way of being sure which one is canon, we'd have to go with one way and it'd be conjecturally canon either way and wrong. So it's best to be at least a little consistent for these particular exceptions, get it? Oh and all my previous comments, I don't know if they matter anymore, because I thought it over more clearly now. Cyfiero 06:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Well the point is that they can't be simply one or the other. There must be some wiggle room. -- Riffsyphon1024 05:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Actually, they have to be either one or the other, and if canon says one way for a specific Force power, sure we'll determine each individually. But again, for the ones that we aren't sure about, we can't just go about having some this and some that, there has to be some consistency. It's just like the whole thing between Human and human, we established a consistent way for that despite the fact canon didn't straighten it out clearly; I don't see how this is any different. Cyfiero 04:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
          • Just makes me wonder however how much we are influencing canon when we do make a decision such as this, especially if we're a source of reference. I do understand where you're coming from though. -- Riffsyphon1024 08:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
            • What troubles me is that the ones we aren't sure about, when they were first created, they could've just went either way. And basically, what we're going to end up doing is just leaving those completely alone. Unfixed, inconsistent, and conjecturally canonical. Like Energy Resistance was created as this kind of capitalization, so it'll stay that way despite being us being unsure. Yet if it was created as energy resistance by whoever first wrote the article, then it'll still stay that way based on this decision. So, in my mind, it seems to me that either way wouldn't matter. I apologize for not being clear when I first created this CT. I think I created it too hastily before I thought through it clearly. What the options should've been were to either lower-case all the ones we aren't sure about or leave them completely alone. I think I should've just gotten through with all the Force powers that are actually referenced in sources and fix all the articles to check if it's consistent before actually going through with this CT. That's why everybody is reluctant on it, not because canon isn't clear, but we just haven't actually checked through it yet to see if canon actually has established consistency because we never really seemed to have checked it so. Perhaps in the future, I'd create another CT once checking through all the articles first. Cyfiero 12:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  7. IFYLOFD (You will pay the price for your lack of vision!) 17:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
  8. JMAS Hey, it's me! 17:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
  9. --Darth tom Imperial Emblem (Imperial Intelligence) 19:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
  10. Per Soresu and Tope. Atarumaster88 Jedi Order (Talk page) 16:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
  11. Though I like standardization, canon dictates things. Chack Jadson (Talk) 13:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  12. Graestan(Talk) 13:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • By the way, if my proposal comes to pass, do you think someone can assign a bot to change all the incorrect capitalizations of Force powers? Cyfiero 05:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
    • As stated below (at the very end), I'm starting to think that we should be a bit more specific on this. Like Force powers should only be treated as general nouns (for canonically-established consistency) if they use "Force" as a 'prefix.' And in the cases in which "Force" is excluded as is allowed with Force powers so named, then the power would be capitalized. e.g. Force grip and Grip Cyfiero 07:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Okay, I seriously need help here. Could someone please fix this CT for me? I think I probably need to revise the options, but I wouldn't know if the users that had already signed would agree with the revised options. Cyfiero 07:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
  • With all due respect, though, the first option basically is the third option to determine each Force power individually except that it handles the ones that we have no way of doing so. Whilst if we were to only determine each Fore power individually, then we have no way of solving the problem with some of the in-game Force powers with nothing more than a title that is always capitalized. Cyfiero 04:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

To SoresuMakashi

  • The problem with that, though, is that not every source sorts these stuff out. A primary example of this are the Force powers from the KotOR games. Energy Resistance, Breath Control, Force Confusion, are all, of course capitalized as titles when you read their description. But other than that, their names are found no where else. So how can we determine whether they're supposed to be capitalized or not? They're canon alright, but still. A few other Force powers such as burst of speed, Force push, battle meditation, Force camouflage, and mind trick for instance, are present in the KotOR series and written as capitalized but established as lower-case in the dialogues and other official sources. But Force powers such as energy resistance have only been present in a title, and as titles are always capitalized (except on wikis themselves), this can't be accurate. But that's the only instance we can find, so are we going to just say, canon established it as capitalized even if it was in a title and countered by many other instances? Or are we going to make common sense to determine that Force powers are in fact general nouns? Actually, most of the capitalization mistake comes from KotOR(II) itself, I just wanted to point out. I mean, I get what you're saying because there are Force powers such as Tapas or Alchaka and the Art of the Small in which we can't just assume whether it's capitalized or not. But at the same time, I can't just go through every single source only to find either no way of determining the right way of capitalization or that it's lower-cased. I simply don't have that time and resources nor is any other user going to bother doing it, as we can see it has been left uncorrected and unchecked for quite some time. I should probably change this so that instead of automatically counting them as general nouns, it should only refer to the ones with Force as a make-shift prefix. Cyfiero 07:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I would just use the KotOR capitalisation. If another source says otherwise, then it can override the game, but I'd rather our decision on capitalisation have at least some canonical basis. Notice that the option I voted under was "Determine each Force power individually", not "always use the source". SoresuMakashi(Everything I tell you is the truth) 08:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
      • The problem with that though is the fact that all the Force powers that have been written in the games' dialogue and in other sources are not capitalized. But by capitalizing the ones that aren't stated clearly, we'd be ruining the consistency it has with the other Force powers. Also, because Force powers that are canonically written as general nouns are also capitalized as titles of descriptions, there really is no canoncical basis at all with those titles. Cyfiero 04:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Wait, I have a question, though. When determining each Force power individually, can we trust that one source or a majority of source isn't conflicting with other sources on the capitalization. So far, I can't find one example that is like that, so can simply use only one source as a reference, or three, or all? Cyfiero 23:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)