Forum:CT:Change Darth Sidious back to Sheev Palpatine

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Change Darth Sidious back to Sheev Palpatine
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The result of the debate was Oppose proposal. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 15:17, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

I have made this proposal less formally on the Darth Sidious talk page, asserting that Sheev Palpatine is the proper name for the character.

I believe that the self-identification argument made in the previous proposal is both flawed, and no longer accurate.

My reasons for this suggestions are as follows:

  • Sheev Palpatine is the Emperor's birth name, and the name that the entire galaxy knew him by. The knowledge of his identity as Darth Sidious was extremely obscure, and a select few individuals knew about it.
  • We do not use self-identification to name articles for characters such as Rex and other clones.
  • In Thrawn: Alliances, the scenes written from the Emperor's point of view refer to him by Palpatine, not Sidious, as evidenced by this excerpt. This means that he has not stopped identifying with the name.
  • All comic narration, even the pieces that identify the Emperor as a Lord of the Sith, prefer to call him Palpatine over Sidious, with Darth Vader Annual 2 as a recent example.

As such, I propose to move Darth Sidious back to Sheev Palpatine and reverse the previous change to naming policy.

Vote

Support the proposal

Sligneris (talk) 22:36, July 25, 2018 (UTC) (Vote struck, reason: Per policy: WP:VEP 2.1.1 -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:00, July 25, 2018 (UTC))

Oppose the proposal

  1. "Despite his public title of Emperor Palpatine, he was Darth Sidious in thought and action from this point forward." - Brandon Rhea(talk) 22:55, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
  2. Another day, another guy with 47 edits trying to lecture us on how to do things. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:00, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
  3. Per discussion below. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:17, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  4. Exiled Jedi (talk) 02:09, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  5. You make good points but I'm afraid the databank and TLJ book seem fairly decisive. Tommy Imperial Emblem Macaroni 07:43, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  6. I'm tending to agree here. Corellian PremierJedi symbolThe Force will be with you always 11:31, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  7. Per Tope's points in the discussion below. Ayrehead02 (talk) 12:28, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  8. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:05, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  9. <-Omicron(Leave a message at the BEEP!) 22:08, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  10. 1358 (Talk) 18:37, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

Comments

  • Point of order: While the consensus policy and voting eligibility policy do not prevent you from bringing forth this CT, they do prevent you from voting on it for the duration. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:00, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
  • I feel that the line from Palpatine's databank biography is largely an indicator of personality, and is not accurate as far as identification is concerned. It should be noted that it does not align with how he's identified in most other canon content. ... Also, I believe that dismissing this proposal on the basis of edit count alone is, frankly, insulting. - Sligneris (talk) 23:06, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
    • Sligneris, I respect that you've approached this proposal thoughtfully and rationally, and I encourage you to continue to defend your position here despite the outcome of the vote. While I'm leaning towards keeping the article at Sidious, I don't think there's necessarily a wrong choice here, just more what we determine is best in line with the Naming policy. I think you raise some solid points, but it's really tough to look past that Databank Biography Gallery line, plus the fact that the Databank gives unmistakable precedence to the "Sidious" name over "Palpatine" in the main intro paragraph. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:11, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
    • Oh, that's not WHY I'm dismissing it. I'm dismissing it because I think it's fine like it is and there's no compelling reason to change it. I appreciate the obvious thought you've put into this ONE issue, but I find it odd that you've focused on this ONE issue. I find that sort of thing tiresome and it reminds me how glad I am that we implemented the unique local consensus regulations that set us apart from more chaotic wikis. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 23:13, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
    • Sligneris, I would contend that most other canon content refers to him as "Palpatine" because that's his public persona and how everyone in the galaxy knows him. But that doesn't change the intent behind our self-identification naming clause, nor have you yet provided a counter to the fact that the Databank makes it very clear the dividing line between where "Palpatine" ends and "Darth Sidious" begins. And this passage from The Last Jedi novelization may be the kicker (page 217, chapter 25): "Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious, heir to the Sith, had been an even greater secret than the Contingency." Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 23:43, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
      • I believe that statements like that are intended to describe Palpatine's true identity as a Sith Lord - much like how, technically, Count Dooku's true identity is that of a Sith Lord, Darth Tyranus.
The similarity to Dooku doesn't end just on both being the Sith, though. Much like Dooku is used way, way more often than Tyranus, to the point it'd be impractical to use anything but Dooku, Palpatine is used way more than Sidious. I do think that is important.
I admit that the databank pokes some hole this interpretation, but I think the dividing line is primarily intended to separate the benevolent-looking persona from the prequels from the dark-hooded persona from the original trilogy. That was simply the most practical way to do it.
It may have been handled this way in the databank, but the character is, nonetheless, known as "Emperor Palpatine"... and I feel that treating the name of Palpatine like it's only a prequel occurrence needlessly contradicts that. - Sligneris (talk) 01:00, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  • The difference between Palpatine and Dooku is vast. Nothing in canon, to my knowledge, ever suggests he began self-identifying as Tyranus like Palpatine began self-identifying as Sidious. The Dooku Databank page uses the name "Tyranus" a grand total of three times, whereas Palpatine's page clearly indicates the identity change. In good faith, and partly out of curiosity to see if you might find some great piece of evidence to change my mind, I've given you a genuine opportunity to argue your case here, but you haven't said anything to convince me we should be moving the article's title. As you say, your position is based entirely on interpretation, which is subjective if not outright incorrect, whereas we have two very solid pieces of evidence supporting keeping the article at Darth Sidious. To reiterate, the Sidious biography gallery states, "Now possessing ultimate power, Palpatine had no further need to cultivate two identities. Despite his public title of Emperor Palpatine, he was Darth Sidious in thought and action from this point forward." And the TLJ novelization says, "Palpatine’s true identity as Darth Sidious, heir to the Sith, had been an even greater secret than the Contingency." You can choose to interpret that to mean something else, but I think the canon intention here is unmistakable. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 01:17, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  • The Databank typically goes for SEO-friendly titles vs the most official name like we do. Hence why the pages on the Databank have titles like Rebel Alliance instead of Alliance to Restore the Republic, or Death Star instead of DS-1 Orbital Battle Station. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 02:00, July 26, 2018 (UTC)
  • Or it could be representative of the fact that he's Palpatine first and Sidious later...or it could just be alphabetical. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 02:10, July 26, 2018 (UTC)